# In which I pit Mary Jo Kopechne **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871 "2009-08-27T03:47:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/181 "2009-08-28T15:21:43Z")
I take **Really Not All That Bright** ’s point but I do agree with **elucidator** that LBJ deserves the lion’s share of the credit for civil rights. See Robert Caro’s _Master of the Senate_ for a view of the most consummate politician of the 20th century at work. Only Johnson could have brought the Southern Senators on board, a group which had held up civil rights legislation for decades. Even though a minority the peculiar rules of the Senate, designed to prevent ‘tyranny of the majority’, had made it impossible to get past the Southerners. Johnson, one of the innermost Southern circle himself, changed all that. If not for Vietnam I think LBJ would be recognized as one of America’s greatest Presidents. I’d put him up there anyway. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/182 "2009-08-28T15:50:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you could argue that JFK _got_ the credit. I don’t think you can say he _took_ it. After all, he was dead. Yeah, but he was also a Kennedy. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/183 "2009-08-28T15:53:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ok, I should say that’s what the original thread was about. The Pit thread is about being pissed off that people couldn’t handle a thread on Mary Jo Kopechne. Which I am no longer pissed off about. I’ve moved on, now it’s just sort of comical in its silliness. Nothing is funnier than hobbits with pitchforks as long as they don’t get too close. 😉 The original thread was you being a jackass and now that you had your forum orgasm, you don’t care. Apparently, bub, you haven’t moved on, because you’re still posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/184 "2009-08-28T16:22:26Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > The original thread was you being a jackass and now that you had your forum orgasm, you don’t care. > > Apparently, bub, you haven’t moved on, because you’re still posting in this thread. Do you have anything to say about Mary Jo Kopechne? I cannot understand your words, as they are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/185 "2009-08-28T16:24:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank ghod **mswas** is bringing up the tragedy of Mary Jo Kopechne, because no one else is. And yet none of the detractors can as yet elucidate a clear and justified opinion as to why I shouldn’t be able to start such a thread. All I have seen so far is, “You’re an asshole because your thread made me go waaaaaaaaaaaa!” I wanted to start a thread, and that’s enough justification. I am not responsible for the weak wills of a bunch of crybabies. Simple enough. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/186 "2009-08-28T16:26:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Do you have anything to say about Mary Jo Kopechne? I cannot understand your words, as they are irrelevant. You can understand my words perfectly well, bub, ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/187 "2009-08-28T16:26:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which makes her pretty much the most remembered “forgotten” victim is history. Out of curiosity, who is claiming she’s forgotten? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/188 "2009-08-28T16:31:47Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > A few days after the accident at Chappauquiddick, Ted Kennedy went public with a speech to the citizens of Massachusetts. It was broadcast the same day that he pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. > > [This speech is just about six minutes long.](http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/politics/senator_ted_kennedy/ted_kennedy_speeches_082709) I saw it broadcast live. > > For some of us it makes a differerence to have seen it live because it gives a perspective of what was going on at that time. Between the time of the accident on July 18 and Teddy’s speech a few days later, man landed on the moon. Our minds were distracted between joy and sorrow. > > Keep in mind also that it had been only a little over a year since Bobby Kennedy had been assasinated while he was running for President – and expected to win the nomination. We were still numb from that and from Martin Luther King, Jr. assasination. And there was still this big scar on our country from the assasination of President Kennedy. He was a very popular President. > > If some of you grieve for Mary Jo, can you imagine for a moment how some others here might feel about the last and probably, in the long run, most influential for the good of the people of the Kennedy brothers? No honestly I can’t, I don’t have the Kennedy sentimentality that you do. To me he’s just another politician. I can sort of intellectually understand it, and I have a bit of empathy for the fact that you care very deeply. But to me Ted Kennedy is not a sentimental subject. > [@](#): > > When you were born, **mswas** , there was no one who had as yet served 50 or even 47 years. The current President of the United States can’t remember when Ted wasn’t in the Senate. Yeah, that is pretty impressive. Though to me it’s a strong argument for term limits. I am uncomfortable in the abstract with one single person being Senator for that long. I really didn’t realize that Kennedy was Senator for 47 years. > [@](#): > > I’m certainly not going to participate in any stone-throwing parties for Edward Kennedy even though it is very sad that such a nice young woman died needlessly. Well I appreciate your contribution to the thread, and I think you have provided the sort of rebuttal to it that is perfect and poignant. Thank you for so honestly sharing how you feel about this. I guess I am not old enough to relate to the love affair with the Kennedys. Their legacy seems like a singular moment in time where one family produced so many luminaries. I guess it is some kind of end of an epoch that never really included me. So **Zoe** , I am sorry for your loss. It seems very personal and heartfelt for you in a way I don’t really comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/189 "2009-08-28T16:32:52Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Out of curiosity, who is claiming she’s forgotten? I claimed that she would soon be forgotten. That there was no reason to remember her, that she’ll be a minor footnote in Kennedy’s bio in history classes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/190 "2009-08-28T16:34:47Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > You can understand my words perfectly well, bub, You’re right. “MsWas, I am the latest to the party, and I came here just to join in the gestalt without recognizing how late I am to the lets bash mswas for starting threads we don’t like train, but please give me attention, please, please, please.” Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/191 "2009-08-28T16:35:52Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > No, I think the implication is that you’re being disingenuous. I’m fully aware of that. I think that most of the people who give such a shit are being disingenous too. I think that most people are like, “Woohoo a pile-on!”, rather than actually caring. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/192 "2009-08-28T16:37:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You’re right. > > “MsWas, I am the latest to the party, and I came here just to join in the gestalt without recognizing how late I am to the lets bash mswas for starting threads we don’t like train, but please give me attention, please, please, please.” > > Is that about right? Tell us again about how you’re “sorry”. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/193 "2009-08-28T16:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > please give me attention, please, please, please Pot, please meet kettle. Kettle, please meet pot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/194 "2009-08-28T16:42:20Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Tell us again about how you’re “sorry”. Sorry what? I couldn’t understand you? What was that you had to say about Mary Jo Kopechne again? Who are you again? I didn’t catch your name or understand why you’re speaking to me. I don’t remember you much less remember apologizing to you for something. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/195 "2009-08-28T16:53:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Sorry what? I couldn’t understand you? What was that you had to say about Mary Jo Kopechne again? > > Who are you again? I didn’t catch your name or understand why you’re speaking to me. I don’t remember you much less remember apologizing to you for something. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/196 "2009-08-28T17:05:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You think I failed to realize that which was blindingly obvious and went without saying huh? Oh, so you realize that millions of other people have died just as young as Mary Jo Kopechne, just as tragically, and are just as deserving of being remembered but have been utterly forgotten. You just don’t think those millions of people deserve even a throw-away sentence in _any_ of the threads you’ve started about how tragic it is that this one woman who has been remembered for decades longer than any of them will now be forgotten like they’ve been. Frankly, I liked you a lot better when you failed to realize that which was blindingly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/197 "2009-08-28T17:13:33Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Oh, so you realize that millions of other people have died just as young as Mary Jo Kopechne, just as tragically, and are just as deserving of being remembered but have been utterly forgotten. You just don’t think those millions of people deserve even a throw-away sentence in _any_ of the threads you’ve started about how tragic it is that this one woman who has been remembered for decades longer than any of them will now be forgotten like they’ve been. If you are going to make such accusations, I would like to see a cite where I say that other tragedies do not deserve to be remembered. This is a straw man. Mentioning Mary Jo Kopechne is not a dismissal of all the other tragedies that occur in this world anymore than starting a thread about a Mother who eats her kids brains is. Singling out one tragedy among many does nothing to diminish the lives or value of other people’s tragedies. The rest of it shows that you clearly haven’t actually read what I’ve written. As I have talked about the tragedies that people have brought up, I have made mention of them, I did look them up where possible, and then posted about them. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I liked you a lot better when you failed to realize that which was blindingly obvious. You mean when you didn’t give what I said much thought and simply made some shit up in order to dismiss what I was saying out of hand? Maybe you should do more reading of what I have written before you accuse me of something. I even gave credence to your own personal tragedy and said that it was a very sad and heartbreaking story. If you really want to talk to me about it rather than use it as a football to harangue me with, I am more than open to that. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/198 "2009-08-28T17:50:47Z")
Mswas: This is for the other thread, but it got closed. Dude. Step back. Step back. Deep breaths. Remember my first response to this posting spree, mswas? “Are you all right?” I’m concerned here. You’ve got to detach from people. Even Elvis, no matter how much a dishonest debator he is, is someone you can’t take personally. He is, I think, honestly just that confused in his thinking. You opened a mea culpa thread. This means it is time for the Airing of the Grievances, and you pretty much _should_ take it, learn from it, and just open your heart and let the anger and strife and stress flow _away_. You don’t have to agree with their positions, you just have to accept that they have them. Don’t protest them, just turn the other cheek. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/199 "2009-08-28T18:01:27Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Mswas: This is for the other thread, but it got closed. > > Dude. Step back. Step back. Deep breaths. Remember my first response to this posting spree, mswas? “Are you all right?” I’m concerned here. You’ve got to detach from people. Even Elvis, no matter how much a dishonest debator he is, is someone you can’t take personally. He is, I think, honestly just that confused in his thinking. > > You opened a mea culpa thread. This means it is time for the Airing of the Grievances, and you pretty much _should_ take it, learn from it, and just open your heart and let the anger and strife and stress flow _away_. > > You don’t have to agree with their positions, you just have to accept that they have them. Don’t protest them, just turn the other cheek. Yes well Munch’s and tacoloco’s threadshitting and trolling got the thread closed. The accusation that I wasn’t listening to constructive criticism falls flat. Look at the difference between how I responded to Oy! and Rubystreak who both came in there honestly with their critiques of my point of view, and how I responded to Munch and Tacoloco. A lot of people like to respond when you say you’re sorry by pressing the attack. They don’t like the apology because they want to continue the drama. Hell in Tacoloco’s case he was even late to the party and has been trying to rehash what’s already been said just so that he can participate. Basically as I see it, don’t attack me and we don’t have a problem. A lot of people have approached me with criticisms and I have been open to them. Others are just doing it to be assholes. They are particularly emboldened because they see me as a weak target now that I have been labelled ‘Troublemaker’ they gleefully pick on me knowing that they can go farther than they would normally get away with because they know it’s my response that will get moderated and not their obvious trolling. It’s actually kind of fascinating in a way. I’ve learned a lot about group dynamics over the past few days. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871/200 "2009-08-28T18:06:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > They don’t like the apology because they want to continue the drama. I didn’t like the apology because I didn’t see it as sincere. You’ve done nothing to dissuade me from that position. If you truly do appreciate the advice others have given you, then show the respect you claim to have for that advice and start following it. Or at the very least, try. The drama continues only as long as you continue to drag this out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-mary-jo-kopechne/507871.md?page=11)