# In which I pit Nice Guys **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131 "2004-11-16T21:34:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/261 "2004-11-22T19:35:50Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > How is her complaint that much different from his? I’m not trying to get into the SMDB’s pants 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/262 "2004-11-22T19:58:32Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I don’t have to believe her simply because ‘she was there.’ But you seem _highly motivated_ to not believe her. > [@](#): > > As much as she says this guy was whining about how women are, she started this thread to bitch and moan about some type of guy, which she must’ve had more than one experience with or she wouldn’t have whined about a group. I’m sure she has had more than one experience with such a guy. Maybe a few of these guys have chased after her and been surly when she wasn’t interested. Or perhaps she heard them bitch and moan to each other on the bus. Who knows? Why don’t you ask her? > [@](#): > > How is her complaint that much different from his? Because she’s not whining and blaming other people for rejecting her? I dunno. > [@](#): > > So terribly sorry that not everyone reacts to criticism the same way you do. So sorry that some people are thin-skinned hothouse flowers that cannot _bear_ to hear any criticism, even if it’s done politely and kindly, and in an attempt to really help them. Too bad these sensitive creatures therefore never learn and grow from their mistakes, but instead blame everyone else for their own shortcomings. Too bad. Getting criticism hurts, and it sucks, but if we never get it, we never improve. Sparing us our feelings by _never_ telling us what is really wrong is _cruel_. It’s _cruel_. You see, I’ve had that done to me too. I had no idea what was wrong, but nobody would tell me. It’s _cruel_ to do that. It’s _spineless_. I have no respect for people who do it. The OP didn’t do that. > [@](#): > > Something that they have named as an entire group because it only happens to them once or twice? A person has a few experiences, they talk to someone else who has their own experiences. They then say, “OMG! I know this type of guy!” And so forth and so on. People start to recognize a “type.” God Forbid people recognize a “type” and talk about it. You know, I have encountered a certain “type” of asshole art critic throughout my life. In a current Cafe Society thread, someone wrote a song about this same “type” of asshole art critic. “OMG! I know that type of person too!” I commented. This happens all the time, in all circles and with all types of folks. > [@](#): > > Yup, cause all men are supposed to be tough and strong and not carry with them the weight of being crapped on. It’s just unmanly to do so. Right. Because they have to learn how to improve themselves to get what they _want_. If they turn into churlish assholes, they can’t expect people to want to wade through that shit. Nobody can expect that. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/263 "2004-11-22T20:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **yosemite** said: > A person has a few experiences, they talk to someone else who has their own experiences. They then say, “OMG! I know this type of guy!” And so forth and so on. People start to recognize a “type.” God Forbid people recognize a “type” and talk about it. Isn’t that usually called bigotry? > [@](#): > > But you seem highly motivated to not believe her. It has all the hallmarks of the ‘he didn’t do exactly what I wanted so I’m going to bitch and moan’ rant. > [@](#): > > I’m sure she has had more than one experience with such a guy. Maybe a few of these guys have chased after her and been surly when she wasn’t interested. Or perhaps she heard them bitch and moan to each other on the bus. Who knows? Why don’t you ask her? Alright then. OP, what led you to define an entire group of people based upon this one individual and rant about that group? > [@](#): > > Because she’s not whining and blaming other people for rejecting her? I dunno. Nah, she’s just whining that this guy wasn’t exactly what she wanted. > [@](#): > > Getting criticism hurts, and it sucks, but if we never get it, we never improve. Sparing us our feelings by never telling us what is really wrong is cruel. It’s cruel. You see, I’ve had that done to me too. I had no idea what was wrong, but nobody would tell me. It’s cruel to do that. It’s spineless. I have no respect for people who do it. The OP didn’t do that. So then it’s fair to criticize her for labeling an entire group, lumping in whoever she feels like, and then bitching about it rather than just calling one guy a pain in her butt or simply being pissed that he wasn’t the Prince Charming she thought he’d be? > [@](#): > > Because they have to learn how to improve themselves to get what they want. If they turn into churlish assholes, they can’t expect people to want to wade through that shit. Nobody can expect that. Like the kind of person who stays mad for six months over getting luggage instead of an engagement ring as did one of the girlfriends mentioned in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/264 "2004-11-22T21:16:01Z")
Quote: CanvasShoes said: As several of us have said several times in this thread, these are the reactions of men when we turn down UNSOLICITED requests for a date. For instance, men who know us from work, school, a club who approach us. > [@](#): > > catsix: And if you turn them down the way the OP did, which is to basically call them a loser without being so direct about it, no wonder they bitch. You’re contradicting yourself right and left here. First you say that, as you do above “well, if they get turned down, no wonder they bitch”. Then you say “if you change your parameters to make sure that you’re not going after only tall, rich, goodlooking etc men” you wouldn’t BE only having guys treat you this way. A coupla things. The subject of the OP isn’t being pitted because he’s a man. He’s not being pitted for not being rich, tall, goodlooking, or whatever enough. He, and others like him are being pitted for their behaviour. And behaviour, such as that described in the OP. Bitching, DURING a date, about how bad women are" is bad behaviour Lastly no one, man or woman “owes” someone else a date or a relationshio, and getting turned down is not a valid reason to verbally abuse someone. Quote: canvasshoes Why should she put up with the way he acted during the date? If he acted like a jerk, she was well within her rights to tell him off. > [@](#): > > Yes, since he wasn’t exactly what she wanted it was her absolute right to hack on his self-esteem by amplifying his belief that he’s a loser. It’ll be good practice for when someone buys her the ‘wrong’ gift. Boy, talk about lack of reading comprehension. This had nothing to do with his lack of tallness, popularity, good lookingness or wealth. It had to do with his ACTIONS and BEHAVIOUR, which were bad form at the very least. And what he’s being bitched at about were something that he very WELL could and SHOULD change, unlike tallness, wealth, looks etc. She wasn’t bitching at HIM because of this, she was nice during the date. If you’d read the OP you’d see that she didn’t say anything to him about perhaps learning some social graces (paraphrased), until after he’d stood her up and then whined and bitched about who bad women are some more, when he called her for the 5000th time. If you (collective you) screw up, as he did, you’re GONNA get called on it. Either IRL, or in some sort of pit forum. Quote:canvasshoes Do we “owe” men a relationship merely on the basis that they want to have us? If a person, any person male or female, behaves badly, a person is well within their rights to tell them so. He spent the entire date whining about how badly he’d been treated by women in the past, how women only date assholes, etc. This is not acceptable behaviour, from anyone, Man or woman. > [@](#): > > Ah, your true feminist colors shining through. Actually, I think what you ‘owe’ people is the respect to treat them like human beings, which doesn’t include telling them point blank that their lack of self-estteem is caused by them being a loser. Then again, we only have the OP’s word for how he acted, which for all I know is just as blown out of proportion as the woman who was upset for six months over not getting the right gift. Hmmm, your true colors as a 14 year old male adolescent come shining through. Again, if a person, male OR female, acts the way the man in the OP did, then the person on the recieving end is well within their rights to tell them off. And yes, owing people respect I agree with. This does not mean that you eat shit from them if they behave badly. The man in the OP did just that by continually bitching at the OP how bad women are, and how they always date assholes, etc. This is verbal abuse. And not only that, since the OP wasn’t dating anyone else, it was stupid and incorrect on his part. Quote:canvasshoes Neither is anyone in this thread is complaining about only finding rich, tall, goodlooking assholes who treat them badly. (remember? your post about us supposedly choosing the wrong parameters for out dating pool?). > [@](#): > > Whatever your parameters are, you’re obviously doing something wrong if you continue the same behavior and always get the same undesirable results. Child, you need to go back and take a few english classes, cuz it ain’t piercing the void. I notice you conveniently left out where I described the circumstances under which this can and does happen to women. MOST of the time, the SPNG happens in an unsolicited environment, the OP is the exception rather than the rule. But, since you’re having trouble understanding it, I’ll explain it a little more slowly. Unsolicited means that you didn’t ask for the date, or the attention. It means that a strange man, in a public setting, comes up and asks you out. 1.) We’re not talking of JUST men we have agreed to date. We’re talking about random, unsolicited approaches by males on the street, in stores, at our job. You know, even you should be able to comprehend society and the concept of public places. One for instance for me. (And ONLY for me. The idea here is that you are then supposed to be able to extrapolate this out into larger groups of women and their experiences.) At any rate, this example, meant to illustrate the concept I’m attempting to get through your thick little skull is as follows: I teach dance, so I’m a somewhat public figure. An itty bitty frog in a medium sized pond, but a somewhat well known one in the fitness and dance circles. So, anywhere from 30 to several hundred students (charity events) attend my dance classes. I haven’t set any “parameters” at all, other than teaching some fun dances and getting the students to have fun. But in the more well-attended events, I get approached a lot by men wanting my number. I’m not interested in dating at all at this point. And MOST men take no as an answer graciously. But a few times a year, I get the SPNG, who gets all sarcastic, “yeah, I know you women only date bad boys, we nice guys never get a chance” and accusatory when I turn him down. I don’t know this guy, didn’t know him when he walked up. And more importantly, he has NO clue who, or IF I’m even dating. Nor does he have any clue what sort of men I prefer, so he’s being a total asshole, NOT a nice guy as he proclaimed himself, and is way off base to boot. Quote: At any rate, Nice Guy (tm, I still didn’t get that to work whoever showed me how to do it ), is the name they give themSELVES. As in, “I’m Nice Guy, I deserve to have her more, that asshole doesn’t, but that’s right (heavy sarcasm and bitter tone ensues), woman always date the bad boy”. And so on. > [@](#): > > [Did it ever occur to you that maybe there are guys who say that who are actually nice and who have actually been shit on by bitches like you their entire lives? God, I thought you were just a little stubborn and misguided, but it turns out you’re really a slavering Idiot. You’re equating 'turns down for a date" as “being shit on by a bitch”. Other than that, what is your point here? That the fact that some men have been turned down for dates then have the right to behave however they damn well please to women? Two wrongs don’t make a right. I have no doubt that some men have been treated unkindly by little Miss Prom Queen (of which I am not a member BTW). Again, this still does NOT make it okay for them to go out and be assholes to ALL women who turn them down. The BEHAVIOUR is still assholish and is NOT being a “nice guy”. Quote: Say, are you a girl? Who is hit on by men? No? Well then how would you know whether or not this type of person exists? If you ARE a girl and have never had this happen, you’re very, very lucky. > [@](#): > > Oh poor, poor you. You’ve been hit on by someone you weren’t interested in. Dear god that must’ve been horrid. Did you pull a Catharine MacKinnon and hand them a business card with the word ‘No!’ printed on it? I have no idea who Catharine Mackinnon is. And once again for the thickheaded. I’m not talking about being approached and being asked out. I, and the other women in here, are talking about the assholes who start in with all the “of course not, girls never want the NICE guys, they only date assholes,and so on…” type men. Quote:canvasshoes And lastly, Cite please? Who, in this thread, has said “all men are scum”? > [@](#): > > Yeah? Some of my best friends are black too. That’s a superior success in a pathetic and non-responsive reply in trying to wiggle out from under a legitimate argument. No one has even come close to the “some of my best friends are black” argument. No one, in this thread, however maniacal the women you know IRL, has said anything about “men”. We have been pitting a behaviour of a specific type of guy. You’re so desperate in this need to protect men, that in any thread that even remotely says a guy might have done something wrong, you rush in, claws aflying and knees a jerkin’. No attempts at logical or analytical discussion have any effect. Nope a man has been insulted, so it’s time to bring out the big guns, accusations of extreme feminism, comparisons to fringe lunatics we don’t even know the names of. After umpteen millino of these cat attacks, wherein you really have no clue, and really aren’t interested in the thread’s actual subject matter, I’ve come to the conclusion that you are really either: A 13 year old male A woman so desperately in need of male attention that one can do NO wrong, and you’ll throw down your guantlet and proudly do battle for them no matter what they’ve done, just in the hopes you’ll impress one enough to actually have one You’re bonkers. (I’m leaning toward a combination of 1 and 3). But, at least you’re interesting, so you’ve got that going for you. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/265 "2004-11-22T21:24:09Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Isn’t that usually called bigotry? Oh give me a freakin’ break. If that’s the case, we’re _all_ bigots. I’m a bigot against asshole art critics. Sheesh. Stop the presses. People notice “types.” Books have been written about “types.” Where have you been, railing against this grievous bigotry, all this time, then? > [@](#): > > It has all the hallmarks of the ‘he didn’t do exactly what I wanted so I’m going to bitch and moan’ rant. Sez you. It sounded to a lot of us like he was whining and being a pain in the ass. > [@](#): > > Nah, she’s just whining that this guy wasn’t exactly what she wanted. You see it that way. More of us see it as he’s wimp. > [@](#): > > So then it’s fair to criticize her for labeling an entire group, A group of _assholes_ or whiners. That’s the “group” she’s targeting. That’s the group that is being targeted by others. So, you want to stand up and defend assholes and whiners (which is exactly the “type” being discussed here)? Fine. Why don’t you stand up and defed asshole art critics too, while you’re at it? After all, I had the _gall_ to make comments about noticing that “type” of person. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287864)—go for it. Step up for all the poor assholes who enjoy criticising other people’s works and rejoicing in others’ failures. (See my long-winded description of this type about halfway down the thread.) That was the type I was talking about, and the author of the song discussed described the same “type” as well. How _dare_ we live our lives, make observations and and have experiences, and because of that, be able to define a “type” of person and then dare to _comment_ on them! Please. Set us straight on how cruel and unfair and bigoted we’re being. > [@](#): > > Lumping in whoever she feels like, and then bitching about it rather than just calling one guy a pain in her butt What in the hell are you blathering about? She talks about who she feels fits the description, and she describes the behavior of such people. The _nerve!_ > [@](#): > > or simply being pissed that he wasn’t the Prince Charming she thought he’d be? Or let’s go back to pain in the butt, shall we? It would be one thing if she were naming specific guys’ names, but she’s not. The kind of guy she names doesn’t exclusively belong to any one age, race, social status. And people have described the female counterpart of this type of person. Stop trying to find an innocent, tragic, misunderstood, discriminated-against victim here. There isn’t one. > [@](#): > > Like the kind of person who stays mad for six months over getting luggage instead of an engagement ring as did one of the girlfriends mentioned in this thread? I took that as kind of lighthearted gripe, not as a seriously grievous complaint on her part (not a deal breaker), but I see you’re going to try to make the most of out it and make it more than it really is. I see that CanvasShoes has also responded, but I’ll go ahead and post this anyway. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/266 "2004-11-22T21:28:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > FWIW your befuddlement at vBb tags is acquiring the category of endearing quirk. Mainly because it allows the rest of us the ego-boost of projecting coding dominance 😃😃😃 > > [sub] (hint: it’s the actual 3-letter strings “sub” and “sup” that are used in the tag) [/sub] [scarlett o’hara]I do declahe, I just neveh CAN figuh out which one of you boys is the better coder[/scarlett o’hara] 😃 (you know what’s really bad? I’m actually a fairly decent hand at computers, not IT genious level, but many people accuse me of geekdom, I’m ashamed to say that I know AutoCAD, and I custom built my desktop. So I don’t get it, it’s just THIS darn forum that continues to ellude me. Oh yeah and POS machines don’t like me either. Must be my streak of blonde :D) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/267 "2004-11-22T21:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **CanvasShoes** said: > He, and others like him are being pitted for their behaviour. And behaviour, such as that described in the OP. Bitching, DURING a date, about how bad women are" is bad behaviour Problem is that she’s going after an entire group of her own definition because of this one person. If she was just bitching that she had a bad date, oh well. But no, it’s gotta be some group of guys. > [@](#): > > Hmmm, your true colors as a 14 year old male adolescent come shining through. That’s really funny, since I’ve never been a 14 year old male adolescent, and can never possibly be one. > [@](#): > > But, since you’re having trouble understanding it, I’ll explain it a little more slowly. I don’t have any problem understanding you. I just think that you’re a bigoted person. > [@](#): > > God, I thought you were just a little stubborn and misguided, but it turns out you’re really a slavering Idiot. Feminazis usually think so. > [@](#): > > No one, in this thread, however maniacal the women you know IRL, has said anything about “men”. We have been pitting a behaviour of a specific type of guy. Which you conveniently amend the definition of ‘nice guy’ to fit any guy you have a problem with. Typical feminist tactic. > [@](#): > > (I’m leaning toward a combination of 1 and 3). Wrong on all counts. I’m 26, female, and quite happily attached. > [@](#): > > But, at least you’re interesting, so you’ve got that going for you. I have a lot going for me. Unfortunatley you’re just a thickheaded feminist bigot. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/268 "2004-11-22T21:33:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **yosemite** said: > Where have you been, railing against this grievous bigotry, all this time, then? I picked my pony. Unless of course you’re saying that one can’t protest bigotry unless one protests all forms of bigotry, which would be idiotic. > [@](#): > > Sez you. It sounded to a lot of us like he was whining and being a pain in the ass. Well I guess that automatically makes you right, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > You see it that way. More of us see it as he’s wimp. Which supposedly means that my opinion is automatically invalid? > [@](#): > > A group of assholes or whiners. That’s the “group” she’s targeting. That’s the group that is being targeted by others. Who may or may not actually be assholes or whiners. If they don’t exude what she wants in a man, they’re going into that group? > [@](#): > > Stop trying to find an innocent, tragic, misunderstood, discriminated-against victim here. There isn’t one. Especially not the OP who just didn’t get what she wanted out of that guy. > [@](#): > > I took that as kind of lighthearted gripe, not as a seriously grievous complaint on her part (not a deal breaker), but I see you’re going to try to make the most of out it and make it more than it really is. It’s petty and bitchy, that whole whining about not getting the gift she wanted. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/269 "2004-11-22T21:46:49Z")
Quote: yosemite said: Of course, you can continue to disbelieve her, but she was there, you weren’t, and your default assumption that she must be lying (because she’s not giving you the answers you want to hear) is not really all that compelling to the rest of us. I don’t have to believe her simply because ‘she was there.’ As much as she says this guy was whining about how women are, she started this thread to bitch and moan about some type of guy, which she must’ve had more than one experience with or she wouldn’t have whined about a group. How is her complaint that much different from his? Quote: Someone kindly telling you that self-esteem is sexy, and “better luck next time” isn’t quite in that same ballpark. I’ll repeat: men are not hothouse flowers. So terribly sorry that not everyone reacts to criticism the same way you do. Quote: You’ve been told this before, and you won’t seem to acknowledge it: people here are not primarily complaining of repeatedly getting the same undesirable result. They are just talking about the Nice Guys that they’ve encountered, and what a pain in the ass they are. > [@](#): > > Something that they have named as an entire group because it only happens to them once or twice? You cannot possibly actually be this stupid. The entire group, (I’m hoping you’ve by now realized that we are talking of a specific group of people who all exhibit and share a specific characteristic?), has named themSELVES. They are the ones that call themselves “Nice Guys”. And again, as several of us have said several times, we bemoan their appropriation of this term, as it was a perfectly nice and serviceable one to apply to the GENUINE Nice Guy. Of which, (AGAIN, a fact we’ve attempted to get through your brain numberious times, and not just in this thread), we all believe there are PLENTY still available. Quote:Yosmite If he’s behaving like a whining wimp or a self-absorbed jerk, then she does not necessarily owe him the extra time and effort to delve into his personality and find out why he’s really this way. > [@](#): > > Yup, cause all men are supposed to be tough and strong and not carry with them the weight of being crapped on. It’s just unmanly to do so. Right. You’d have no trouble escaping nukes lobbed at your head, you’re so EXCELLENT at missing the piont. No, it does not mean that men are supposed to be all tough etc. Once a person reaches adulthood, they ARE however, responsible for their actions and behaviour. If a parson has such scars and damage that they are truly having that hard of a time, then counseling, or professional help is the appropriate response. NOT that of taking it out on every woman one gets turned down by. It is not a strange woman, who the man has never seen before, but only approaches to ask for a date, (or one who he has dated once, and is turned down for a second date), it’s not her responsibility nor SHOULD It ever be, to act as his psychiatrist and “fix” him. Particularly after he’s just gotten through bitching and whining at her, and insulting her. Like **Yosemite** said, is it supposed to make the woman suddenly go “OH, what was I thinking, wow, I didn’t know I was going to be insulted, verbally abused and my entire sex put down for the entire time I’ve known you!!!, Well, hell, in that case FORGET the GNG (genuine nice guy), now, I MUST have you, you sexy abusive hunk you”. I mean …“WHAT”? Be real. If you approach a woman, and upon being told “no thank you”, begin to berate her, and all women for the sin of every woman who’s mistreated you before, it does not matter how horrible OTHER women were to you. IT IS NOT BEING A NICE GUY. It is being an ASSHOLE. It’s that simple. And **Yosemite** made a good point with telling a person why you don’t want to date them. It IS, to some, more cruel not to know. Unfortunately, with some people (men AND women), once told what’s wrong, they start getting all clingy and frantic and promise to “be whatever you want”. GAaaaaah, shudder. That’s another thread, but that’s almost worse. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/270 "2004-11-22T21:50:04Z")
Quote: You’ve been told this before, and you won’t seem to acknowledge it: people here are not primarily complaining of repeatedly getting the same undesirable result. They are just talking about the Nice Guys that they’ve encountered, and what a pain in the ass they are. > [@](#): > > Something that they have named as an entire group because it only happens to them once or twice? You cannot possibly actually be this stupid. The entire group, (I’m hoping you’ve by now realized that we are talking of a specific group of people who all exhibit and share a specific characteristic?), has named themSELVES. They are the ones that call themselves “Nice Guys”. And again, as several of us have said several times, we bemoan their appropriation of this term, as it was a perfectly nice and serviceable one to apply to the GENUINE Nice Guy. Of which, (AGAIN, a fact we’ve attempted to get through your brain numberious times, and not just in this thread), we all believe there are PLENTY still available. Quote:Yosmite If he’s behaving like a whining wimp or a self-absorbed jerk, then she does not necessarily owe him the extra time and effort to delve into his personality and find out why he’s really this way. > [@](#): > > Yup, cause all men are supposed to be tough and strong and not carry with them the weight of being crapped on. It’s just unmanly to do so. Right. You’d have no trouble escaping nukes lobbed at your head, you’re so EXCELLENT at missing the piont. No, it does not mean that men are supposed to be all tough etc. Once a person reaches adulthood, they ARE however, responsible for their actions and behaviour. If a parson has such scars and damage that they are truly having that hard of a time, then counseling, or professional help is the appropriate response. NOT that of taking it out on every woman one gets turned down by. It is not a strange woman, who the man has never seen before, but only approaches to ask for a date, (or one who he has dated once, and is turned down for a second date), it’s not her responsibility nor SHOULD It ever be, to act as his psychiatrist and “fix” him. Particularly after he’s just gotten through bitching and whining at her, and insulting her. Like **Yosemite** said, is it supposed to make the woman suddenly go “OH, what was I thinking, wow, I didn’t know I was going to be insulted, verbally abused and my entire sex put down for the entire time I’ve known you!!!, Well, hell, in that case FORGET the GNG (genuine nice guy), now, I MUST have you, you sexy abusive hunk you”. I mean …“WHAT”? Be real. If you approach a woman, and upon being told “no thank you”, begin to berate her, and all women for the sin of every woman who’s mistreated you before, it does not matter how horrible OTHER women were to you. IT IS NOT BEING A NICE GUY. It is being an ASSHOLE. It’s that simple. And **Yosemite** made a good point with telling a person why you don’t want to date them. It IS, to some, more cruel not to know. Unfortunately, with some people (men AND women), once told what’s wrong, they start getting all clingy and frantic and promise to “be whatever you want”. GAaaaaah, shudder. That’s another thread, but that’s almost worse. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![passengerpigeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@passengerpigeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/passengerpigeon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/271 "2004-11-22T21:50:41Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Isn’t that usually called bigotry? No? There’s a significant difference between “All guys are XXX. They suck.” “Yeah!” and “Hey, you know guys who are XXX? They suck.” “Yeah!” –p ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/272 "2004-11-22T21:57:38Z")
Until you start amending XXX until it fits damn near every person who has ever not been exactlywhat you want another human being to be. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/273 "2004-11-22T22:13:35Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I picked my pony. Unless of course you’re saying that one can’t protest bigotry unless one protests all forms of bigotry, which would be idiotic. You’re trying to say that recognizing and discussing a **TYPE OF BEHAVIOR** and the people who **DISPLAY THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR** is bigotry, which is idiotic. If the OP had said, “All Armenian men from Glendale, California have a certain type of behavior” then perhaps that would be bigotry. But she’s not singling out all men, she’s singling out _people_ who behave a certain way. The way I single out people who rejoice in other people’s failure, and enjoy pointing out people’s failures. So please, explain it to me: how _exactly_ is my describing a _type_ of art critic (one that rejoices in pointing out others’ failures) “bigotry”? And _who_ is it bigoted against, specifically? Because I described a “type” and so did the OP, and you’re calling what she’s doing bigotry. So it must follow that what I did was bigotry too. > [@](#): > > Well I guess that automatically makes you right, doesn’t it? It doesn’t automatically make me and all the others who agree with me right (who obviously outnumber you by a great bit) but it certainly doesn’t make _you_ right, and it doesn’t make us want to take _your_ word for it. > [@](#): > > Which supposedly means that my opinion is automatically invalid? Which means that few are seeing it your way and many probably think you’re full of shit. > [@](#): > > Who may or may not actually be assholes or whiners. If it talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck . . . Look: if someone behaves like an asshole or a whiner, then **THAT’S WHAT THEY ARE**. > [@](#): > > If they don’t exude what she wants in a man, they’re going into that group? Where do you get that? There are very likely many guys that don’t exude what she wants in a man, but they’re not getting put in that group. They might be put in the “skinny and hyper and very nice but not my type” group, or the “too political” group, or whatever. There are more than one group, you know. > [@](#): > > It’s petty and bitchy, that whole whining about not getting the gift she wanted. It actually kind of funny, in a light-hearted kind of way. Well, unless you are humor-impaired. When I was about 10 years old, my mom gave me a book (not a children’s book) about the life of Nostradamus. A very weird gift, since I was looking forward to Barbie Dolls. I still tease her about it, but I don’t despise her for it. It’s just one of those funny things. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/274 "2004-11-22T22:20:43Z")
Quote: CanvasShoes said: He, and others like him are being pitted for their behaviour. And behaviour, such as that described in the OP. Bitching, DURING a date, about how bad women are" is bad behaviour > [@](#): > > Problem is that she’s going after an entire group of her own definition because of this one person. If she was just bitching that she had a bad date, oh well. But no, it’s gotta be some group of guys. No, for the zilliionth time, she’s going after an entire group of THEIR own definition. X group of y who exhibit N behaviour does NOT = all Y are bad. At any rate, there are men, who exhibit this behaviour. Not just the one the OP went out with. Enough of them so that it’s an actual group. Self named, self proclaimed Nice Guys. Every woman in this thread, with the exception of you, has experienced at least one of the men from this particular group. Also, saying that there IS such a group does NOT then = and it’s a huge group, MOST men fit into it, they’re all OVER, there’s one around every corner. In fact, “that” guy is probably one. You’re not arguing the OP, you’re arguing some imaginary slight against men. There are groups of people who exhibit bad behaviour. Gangs for instance. Gangs exist, they ARE evil. To complain about their existance does not then equal “all young adolescents are bad”. I honestly cannot wrap my mind around why a person who seems to be reasonably intelligent can’t grasp this simple fact. Quote:shoes Hmmm, your true colors as a 14 year old male adolescent come shining through. > [@](#): > > That’s really funny, since I’ve never been a 14 year old male adolescent, and can never possibly be one. Well, the desperation with which you fanatically defend any imagined slight to any male, suggests such to observers of your posts. Quote:shoes But, since you’re having trouble understanding it, I’ll explain it a little more slowly. > [@](#): > > I don’t have any problem understanding you. I just think that you’re a bigoted person. Yes, I’m bigoted against mean people, into which category the men who do the whole “women are all bad, they only date assholes” rant at anyone daring to turn them down for a date, fall. Quote:shoes God, I thought you were just a little stubborn and misguided, but it turns out you’re really a slavering Idiot. > [@](#): > > Feminazis usually think so. Oh, yet another clever attempt at misdirection. This isnt’ about men vs. women. In a pit thread where men were pitting Golddiggers I would consider you JUST as stupid for defending all women when it was obvious that the subject matter was a specific subset that was exhibiting a particularly bad trait. Quote:shoes No one, in this thread, however maniacal the women you know IRL, has said anything about “men”. We have been pitting a behaviour of a specific type of guy. > [@](#): > > Which **you conveniently amend the definition of 'nice guy** ’ to fit any guy you have a problem with. Typical feminist tactic. **bangs head on desk** \* **I** didn’t amend any definition. Once again, along with many other women in this thread, I am SAD that that phrase has been appropriated as it has. And once again, (this has been explained to you NUMEROUS times here), it is the MEN, who exhibit this behaviour THEMSELVES who proclaim thenselves nice guys. Hence our saying that they are Self Proclaimed Nice Guys, so as to set them apart from men who ARE genuinely nice. Quote:shoes (I’m leaning toward a combination of 1 and 3). > [@](#): > > Wrong on all counts. I’m 26, female, and quite happily attached. Actually, it was 2 that was about your need for a man. You still exhibit adolescent male attitudes and bonkers behaviour. And this is due to the fact that rather than arguing what people have actually said, you argue some imaginary insults in your own mind and then bring them to the thread. OP: X group of Y is bad because they Z. Cat: YOU HATE X, You’re so predijuced against all X, X hates you too, becaues you shit on them, no wonder you can’t get an X/have the wrong parameters set to get an X/have X treat you badly in return etc. It’s because X has been shit upon by YOU… Group at large: um no cat, we’re talking about only X who Y, and SAY that they Y. Cat: WEll it’s YOUR fault they Y, if you weren’t so mean to them they wouldn’t have to Y Ad nauseum. Quote:shoes But, at least you’re interesting, so you’ve got that going for you. > [@](#): > > I have a lot going for me. Unfortunatley you’re just a thickheaded feminist bigot. Suuuure I am. Keep comforting yourself with that myth. Yes, that’s right cat (stare deeply into my eyes now), any woman who DARES suggest that some men might not be perfect angels are all…what was it?..Oh yes, thickheaded feminists bigots. Especially silly when you consider that not only have I not said anything about men being inferior, etc, neither has any other woman in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/275 "2004-11-22T22:21:23Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > I didn’t say non-hot women can’t get men. Just go down to the mall and see a bunch of non-hot women with (usually) non-hot men. I was specifically was talking about non-hot women getting young, hot men. That’s something you don’t see so often. No you weren’t. You said, “Think of all the old geezers or non-hot guys who have no problem getting the chicks”, and that’s what I responded to. > [@](#): > > And regarding Roseanne: have you\* seen\* her ex-husbands? Do any of them remotely look like Jude Law? Are any of them a hot young guy? I’m sorry, did I _say_ that Roseanne’s ex-husbands were “hot”? I don’t believe I did. > [@](#): > > And as far as Oprah goes, I believe she’s had the same committment-phobic boyfriend for years now. And she’s not ugly. She is sometimes fat, but not ugly. And once again, while her longtime boyfriend isn’t exactly ugly, he ain’t Jude Law, Will Smith, or anything remotely close to it. Did I say he was? But how about Whoopi Goldberg and Ted Danson, then? He’s a sex-symbol. She is not _un_attractive, but certainly not a sex-symbol. > [@](#): > > You know, let’s just back up here a little bit. To the part where you try to claim that men are judged just as stringently by their looks as women are. Let’s just do that. I don’t believe I said it that way. I said men are judged by _different_ criterea. > [@](#): > > How many over-45 actresses (or better yet, over-50 actresses) are hot leading ladies? How many men are, in comparison, still considered hot leading men? Because age is not a criterea that is applied equally to men and women. Let’s try _this_: How many men under 5’5" are leading men? None that I can think of. How many women under 5’5" are leading ladies? Lots. > [@](#): > > How many magazines can you list that are geared towards helping men look better, cosmetically, and fashion-wise? Again, that’s not as important a criterea for men. Men’s magazines are about being aggressive, making money, and being physically strong. And the role-models portrayed in these magazines are almost all tall, dominant-type, aggressive men. > [@](#): > > Let’s compare that number to women’s magazines. And let’s go to television and magazine ads. How many of these are geared towards preying on men’s insecurity about their looks? Lots of them. Are you kidding? “Hair Club for Men”, Propecia, Rogaine, exercise equipment. And don’t even get me started on the penis enlargement ads. > [@](#): > > You know, I can think of two actors right off the top of my head that still can have “leading man” roles, while their female counterparts? No way in hell. Two of my favorites: Richard Dean Anderson. He’s in his early 50s. A lot of us still think he’s hot. He’s got greying hair. Mostly grey, actually. He doesn’t look like he’s in his early 50s, but mid-late 40s at least. Not young. Almost all grey hair. Hot. How many grey haired, mid-late 40s women can _you_ name that are still able to play leading ladies? And the other: Tom Berenger. Also early 50s. Looks like mid-late 40s. Pot belly. Big ol’ pot belly. This man is not a trim, fit person. He’s still playing leading men, he’s still considered hot by a lot of us. How many oveweight mid-late 40s actresses still get leading lady roles? Care to name a few? You’re missing the point. Age is not the most important criterea for women when selecting a mate. Height is more important to them. The two most notable “exceptions” Micheal J. Fox and Tom Cruise, aren’t really _that_ short; only compared to the above-average height of most other leading men. And both started out as adolescent stars, where they played characters that weren’t necessarily fully-grown men. Only their way above-average looks made them acceptable in leading roles, despite their somewhat below-average stature. Dustin Hoffman never really got to play “leading man” roles because he’s too short. Neither David Spade nor Rob Schneider will probably ever get a non-farcical leading role. But there is no such restriction for women. Women leads run the gamut from very tall to very petite. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how anyone can say that the pressure or expectation is the same on both sides. There’s no way that it is. Yeah, life’s just _so_ unfair, isn’t it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/276 "2004-11-22T22:28:53Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Like the kind of person who stays mad for six months over getting luggage instead of an engagement ring as did one of the girlfriends mentioned in this thread? I’ve got to comment on this. An engagement ring comes with a proposal. An _engagement_ ring says “I love you. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. Marry me.” Luggage, usually, does not. If the girlfriend was expecting ruby earrings (“I was thinking about you and got something nice, and I’m romantic”) and got luggage (“I was thinking about you and got something nice, and I’m practical”) and bitched, that would be one thing. But if she was expecting her long term boyfriend to ask her to share their lives together and got luggage, I can understand her disappointment. (Unless it was engagement luggage - with a letter inside saying “Be my wife.” But I didn’t get the feeling that the luggage came with such a note.) ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/277 "2004-11-22T22:36:23Z")
Quote: yosemite said: A person has a few experiences, they talk to someone else who has their own experiences. They then say, “OMG! I know this type of guy!” And so forth and so on. People start to recognize a “type.” God Forbid people recognize a “type” and talk about it. > [@](#): > > cat: Isn’t that usually called bigotry? No, it’s not. Bigotry is when people are against a class or group of people based on such criteria as their skin color, sexual orientation, religion (or lack thereof), sex etc. Categorizing a group of assholes, whatever their sex, is not bigotry. A group of men exhibit the behaviour in the OP. That of being an asshole. Being an asshole isn’t being a member of a protected class. Again with the Golddigger example. They exist, and it’s a cheapass, lazy bitchy way to live. There IS a group of women who exhibit this behaviour. It’s not a trait, not a physical attribute, not a religious choice (okay, some would argue that :D), not something they have no control over. It’s NOT bigoted to Pit a Golddigger, they are a recognized subset of women. By the same token, it’s not bigoted to pit, or be against a Self-Proclaimed Nice Guy, except for by you, they are a recognized subset of men. I’m sure that SPNLesbians exist too, but this thread isn’t pitting THEM. It by women who date men, about a certain type of men out there in dating land (there’s also Super Nice Guy who you really, really like but have no chemistry with, Super Nice Guy you totally love, but he only likes you as a friend back, and so on). How is it that you have made it to the ripe old age of 26 without having run across enough types of people not to recognize one when you see one enough to recognize say “blowhard braggart” for an example when you see one??? Do you live in a mink-lined vault, never ever having contact with many people out in the day to day world? Your views of absolute black and white just stun me. I’m sorry I said you were stupid, but your insistance on refusing to understand what people are saying is just amazingly perplexing. Disagreement we can understand. **Aeschines** was disagreeing with us, as were some others. The difference IS, they were disagreeing with things we’d actually SAID. Not with their own personal through the filter of “everyone’s a feminazi” filter imaginations of what others said. He also provided cites for his opinions and beliefs, something you refuse to do. You claim women in this thread are dissing men for “not being good enough” for them. But when asked for cites of where any of us said any such thing, you can’t, or won’t provide them. This is similar to every other thread in which you’ve unnecessarily rushed to the defense of men. You’re all about the accusations of extreme feminism, but no proof. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/278 "2004-11-22T22:40:21Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > No you weren’t. You said, “Think of all the old geezers or non-hot guys who have no problem getting the chicks”, and that’s what I responded to. You’re not paying attention. I went on to say old geezers who get _young_ hot chicks. And I’m talking about _physical appearance_ here, not other factors, like riches. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, did I _say_ that Roseanne’s ex-husbands were “hot”? I don’t believe I did. I’m sorry, did I say that old fat chicks can’t get men? No, I don’t believe I did. I said that old fat chicks have trouble getting young _hot_ men. Even rich fat old chicks. Some do get hot young men (like I said, that’s why the term “gigilo” was invented) but I don’t think the numbers are as high. > [@](#): > > Did I say he was? But how about Whoopi Goldberg and Ted Danson, then? He’s a sex-symbol. She is not _un_attractive, but certainly not a sex-symbol. He’s also not young. And while it’s true that you can name a _few_ older not-beautiful women who bag hot young guys, you will find many more older guys/hot young women (Harrison Ford/Clalista Flockhart and Angelina Jolie/Billy Bob come immediately to mind. I could list many more if I put my mind to it.) > [@](#): > > Let’s try _this_: How many men under 5’5" are leading men? None that I can think of. How many women under 5’5" are leading ladies? Lots. Sheesh, why are you wasting my time with this? I already conceded a long time ago that shorter men have a harder time of it than shorter women. > [@](#): > > Men’s magazines are about being aggressive, making money, and being physically strong. And the role-models portrayed in these magazines are almost all tall, dominant-type, aggressive men. Tall is an appearance, but aggressive, making money and being dominant are not phsyical attributes. I’m talking about _physical appearance_ here. Visual. Physical. Not how much money a person makes. > [@](#): > > Lots of them. Are you kidding? “Hair Club for Men”, Propecia, Rogaine, exercise equipment. And don’t even get me started on the penis enlargement ads. And you think these outnumber (or even equal) the ones directed at women? Are you kidding? > [@](#): > > You’re missing the point. Age is not the most important criterea for women when selecting a mate. Height is more important to them. And with men, age and thinness _is_ important, but height isn’t. So? An overweight, not terribly young man can still bag a hot chick as long as he’s not too short. Compare that to a tall or short woman. She might bag a hot guy—but she’d better not be not-terribly-young or overweight. > [@](#): > > . > > Yeah, life’s just _so_ unfair, isn’t it? :rolleyes: All I’m saying is that women are held to a stricter standard when it comes to physical appearance. You want to seriously claim that they aren’t? Fine, but a lot of us are never going to buy it, because we live in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![passengerpigeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@passengerpigeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/passengerpigeon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/279 "2004-11-22T22:40:25Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Until you start amending XXX until it fits damn near every person who has ever not been exactlywhat you want another human being to be. 🙂 You know, you’re right. Next time I see someone doing that, I’ll roundly condemn them. –p ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/280 "2004-11-22T22:47:08Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Alright then. OP, what led you to define an entire group of people based upon this one individual and rant about that group? Again, this isn’t my definition. As **CanvasShoes** and **yosemite** have both noticed, this is how they define themselves. A guy won’t go into this category unless he puts himself there by referring to himself as a Nice Guy by saying something like "women only date assholes. I don’t think I made it clear in the OP, but my “confidence is sexy” comment was in direct response to “Trevor’s” solicitation for advice on women (during a date with me!). That was the nicest thing I could think of to say without lying. **catsix** , do you have no filters for deciding with whom you associate? I try to avoid generalizations, but _everybody_ has preferences for who they spend time with. Its either that or go nuts- from boredom if not annoyance. Some people are even toxic. Do they have the unquestioned right to my time, just because they want it and feel victimized by someone who looked like me? Is denying someone you time automatically “crapping all over them”? And FYI, I’ve had three SPNG[sup]tm[/sup] interested in me (that I know of) and been friends with several more who had their sights on some other vict- uhh, woman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131.md?page=15)