# In which I pit Nice Guys **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131 "2004-11-16T21:34:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/141 "2004-11-18T18:38:59Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > How is it logical or intelligent to immediately consider that the option with the least statistical likelihood of being right must be the correct option when meeting a new person? It’s not about thinking that the least likely option _must_ be the right one, it’s about being aware that the least likely option _might_ be the right one. In other words, 1) don’t assume that you know anything about the beliefs or capabilities of someone you’ve just met, and 2) if you can’t do #1, at least give people the benefit of the doubt until you see evidence one way or another regarding whatever assumption you’d like to hoist on them. It may not seem “logical” or “intelligent” to you, but IMO it’s respectful and open-minded. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/142 "2004-11-18T18:44:10Z")
I’d prefer not to assume someone capable of something until I see some kind of evidence that they are. If one possibility is overwhelmingly more likely than the other, that’s the one I start with and then see if I’m proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/143 "2004-11-18T18:47:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It wouldn’t be the SDMB if people didn’t think stuff through WAY too much. And that, I suspect, is the problem - with both “nice guys” and the women who pit them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/144 "2004-11-18T18:55:36Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > \*There’s this notion going around that most women would find it charming if a nice, somewhat shy man found her attractive enough that he would screw up his courage and ask her out. … > > … OR they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be “friends”, in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a “date”\* > > Do you not see the difference between these two behaviors? Hmmm…Maybe I wasn’t clear. I didn’t say those two situation were exactly the same. > [@](#): > > The guy in the latter example is only _pretending_ friendship to “get” the girl, often going so far as to feign interest in things that he knows nothing about. That is dishonest, and it makes women feel betrayed and used. Nah, I don’t think that’s what it’s saying. It says pretending to be “friends”. _Friends_ is in quote marks - the meaning being he’s pretending to _only_ be friends, when he desires to be _not only friends_, but _more_ than friends. I don’t think it’s talking about a guy who has no interest in being friends at all, but just pretends to be friends to get her in the sack. That would be your Category B - asshole guy. The article is about “nice guys” who are unassertive, not manipulative assholes. I think you’re totally misreading it. > [@](#): > > In romantic movies, the shy guy will almost always come right out and ask her out, even if it is only on a “friendly” date (like a hockey game, etc). If they do form a friendship first, it is based on a mutual interest or activity. This is honest, and it makes women feel connected and respected. Maybe we’re seeing different movies. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/145 "2004-11-18T18:58:38Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > It is not always easy for women to learn man-ese, as I’m sure most women know. By the same token, you’ve kinda got to cut a man a break if he has a tough time learning woman-ese. If any of this were true, gay couples would communicate infinitely better than straight ones. We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/146 "2004-11-18T19:05:17Z")
From what I’ve seen though, **matt** , there are just so damned many occasions where men and women misunderstand each other because they both expect the other to communicate in the each other’s language. That happens to be because most of the people I know are straight people. The women going off to their women friends and complaining that the man just doesn’t communicate how he feels, or pick up on her feelings correctly. The men going off to their men friends and complaining that the woman just doesn’t say anything straight out or answer a direct question. I found this to be illustrated by the luggage vs. engagement ring story. Although, I have to say that it does sound kind of shitty to be miffed because although someone did think of you and get you a present, it wasn’t _the specific present_ that you wanted. Perhaps the real problem is that everybody on earth automatically seems to assume that everyone else on earth will modify their communication styles appropriately for the individual. It’d be folly for me to expect _everyone_ to communicate to me in catsix-ese. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/147 "2004-11-18T19:05:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > And that, I suspect, is the problem - with both “nice guys” and the women who pit them. 😃 It wouldn’t be so bad if we didn’t insist on talking it to death, too. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/148 "2004-11-18T22:11:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > And that, I suspect, is the problem - with both “nice guys” and the women who pit them. 😃 But it’s not “nice guys” who are being pitted: Nice Guys are. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/149 "2004-11-18T22:26:58Z")
I hate to double post, but I clicked “Submit Reply” too soon… > [@catsix](#): > > I’d prefer not to assume someone capable of something until I see some kind of evidence that they are. {shrug} To each their own. > [@matt\_mcl](#): > > If any of this were true, gay couples would communicate infinitely better than straight ones. We don’t. Amen, bro. If I had a nickle for every time I heard some dumbass say “You know, sometimes I really wish I were gay, because it would be so much easier to deal with other men/women”. . . :rolleyes: > [@catsix](#): > > From what I’ve seen though, **matt** , there are just so damned many occasions where men and women misunderstand each other because they both expect the other to communicate in the each other’s language. I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but I gotta say that I think the trouble comes when people believe that men and women speak different languages. You may have only observed the stereotypes, but there _are_ women who think/talk more like the books say men do, and vice versa. The misunderstandings happen when people with different communication styles get together; it has little to do with whether it’s two males, two females, or one of each (or more than one of each, for the polyamorous among us 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/150 "2004-11-18T22:55:18Z")
> [@Strainger](#): > > _::Buys plane ticket to Iceland::_ What, want to meet the [locals](http://www.vegamot.is/myndir.asp?curpage=2&safn=172)? 😉 You should visit soon before our women get even fatter (american fastfood is wreaking havoc on our once World’s Most Beautiful Women…) but mostly because it’s a sweet place to be: close, safe, stunning landscapes etc. etc. and it is surprisingly easy to fly to. Amazing Race did the island no justice. Now, where was I… > [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > Actually, my last boyfriend fit your description perfectly (except he was Norwegian, not Scandinavian), and we were together for almost two years. [Scandinavia](http://www.goscandinavia.com/) consists of Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden and Finland. No jokes or anything - just pointing it out. _norwegian joke erased_ > [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > none of what we are talking about here applies to you. Hey, that’s just mean! But seriously… my bad, I guess; all work and no sleep make UselessGit lose temper, mind and ability to read (previous message posted at 06:00 or thereabouts GMT… I think). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/151 "2004-11-18T23:06:13Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Take, for example, gifts. Now, we’ve all found something at an antique store or something and said “That’d be just right for so-and-so” and bought it as a gift. Thats one of the things that friends do for each other. But a lot of romantically unsuccessful guys “know” that you are supposed to give romantic gifts. So instead of giving a simple heartfelt gift when it comes naturally, they rush around looking for something that fits their scheme of “romantic”. This is probably going to end up creeping out the girl, who will realize that this guy probably doesn’t know a thing about who they are but is spending money on them and is therfor probably kind of creepy. Some shy guys that do that, or show up with flowers on the first date, probably think that they are overcoming their shyness by making a bold statement (which may not actually be that bold after all). Still, fretting over this kind of thing can bind a guy up into a state of paralyzing shyness, thinking that no matter what they do it’ll be inappropriate, creepy, and desperate. From my own experience, the best thing to do was to just stop obsessing over being lonely. I began to enjoy life, going out alone if I felt like it, and it wasn’t long before my luck started to change and I didn’t have to go out alone anymore. The one thing, IMO, a lonely man or woman should NOT do is go on about how awful it is being lonely to anyone but a counselling professional, not even a friend. Because your friends don’t want to hear about it either. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/152 "2004-11-18T23:13:26Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > The one thing, IMO, a lonely man or woman should NOT do is go on about how awful it is being lonely to anyone but a counselling professional, not even a friend. Because your friends don’t want to hear about it either. Then, they aren’t friends. When did therapists begin to replace friends??? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/153 "2004-11-18T23:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > **Misnomer** said: > I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but I gotta say that I think the trouble comes when people believe that men and women speak different languages. You may have only observed the stereotypes, but there are women who think/talk more like the books say men do, and vice versa. I think I’ve observed it because I communicate far better with men tan women. A generalization isn’t false if it’s not 100% accurate. It’s not supposed to be exactly that way for every single person on the planet. It’s a general trend. > [@](#): > > The misunderstandings happen when people with different communication styles get together; it has little to do with whether it’s two males, two females, or one of each (or more than one of each, for the polyamorous among us ). It just seems to me to happen far more often between the sexes than it does within one sex. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/154 "2004-11-18T23:26:03Z")
Okay, how about this-the female equivalent of the “Nice Guy” would be the girl who always wants the exact opposite of what she says. You know the type. The one who keeps asking, “Does this dress make me look fat? Be honest!” And it doesn’t matter what you say-it’ll always be the wrong answer. If you say no, you’re lying. But you can’t say yes, because that’s cruel and hateful. Or when she’s obviously upset about something, and you ask what’s wrong, and she says nothing. She says, “No, I don’t want to talk about it,” even though she really does, but she wants YOU to keep at it, and she wants YOU to be able to read her mind. She wants you to do certain things…but she won’t TELL you what she wants, because if she does, “it doesn’t mean anything!” Now, most men HATE this, right? It’s the same with women and “Nice Guys”. It seems we should hook up all the “Nice Guys” and “Opposite Gals” and then the rest of us can go and screw our brains out in peace. 😉 **Roland** , I wasn’t aiming my “gee, no wonder you’re single!” comment at you. I was again aiming it at the people who are saying, “But these guys are NICE, it’s YOUR FAULT! YOU WOMEN ARE STOOPID AND ONLY LIKE GUYS WHO ARE ASSHOLES!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/155 "2004-11-18T23:50:49Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but I gotta say that I think the trouble comes when people believe that men and women speak different languages. You may have only observed the stereotypes, but there _are_ women who think/talk more like the books say men do, and vice versa. The misunderstandings happen when people with different communication styles get together; it has little to do with whether it’s two males, two females, or one of each (or more than one of each, for the polyamorous among us 😉 ). I keep meaning to get myself a button that says “Deborah Tannen thinks I’m a man.” The failure state of “men and women speak different languages” is magnified when the presumption of what the communication style _has_ to be trumps the actual geniune human being. It’s my experience that this happens a _lot_. (And it’s a good way to piss off and insult the actual human beings involved.) (BTW, I appreciate the parenthetical line. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/156 "2004-11-18T23:54:26Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > [Scandinavia](http://www.goscandinavia.com/) consists of Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden and Finland. No jokes or anything - just pointing it out. _norwegian joke erased_ :smack: The American Public Educational System strikes again! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/157 "2004-11-18T23:57:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Then, they aren’t friends. OK, I need to backpedal on that a little bit; I was being overly sweeping and harsh. Of course you can spill your woes to your friends. We all do it sometimes, and sometimes it’s OK. But not _ **every time we see them** _. I was thinking of a friend of my wife’s when I posted that. It never fails, after we’ve all been together for a short while, she will bring up the sad fact of her singleness. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/158 "2004-11-19T00:08:42Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > I would say that just as “why ‘nice guys’ don’t attract women” is blindingly obvious to you yet apparently invisible to said “nice guys,” that “gee, she’s really dating an asshole” is blindingly obvious to some outsiders, while the woman herself is apparently oblivious. > > And yeah, the outsider doesn’t “know” you’re dating an asshole from a few public observances…he might be having a bad day. You don’t “know” that nice guy is really a “nice guy” … he might have just gotten out of an emotionally taxing relationship, or be working overtime for a few weeks and isn’t his usual boisterous self. Or whatever. > > Works both ways. If you don’t want people making uninformed judgements about you and your ability to work in relationships, please try to afford others the same courtesy. The difference however IS, that the girl dating the alleged asshole isn’t looking at the guys around her and saying "gee, that guy just looked at me, he must be a nice guy secretly mad because I’m here with what appears to be an asshole instead of dating the nice guy because he “deserves” me more. See the difference? She’s just going about her life, whether others think she’s doing the right thing or not. The self-proclaimed nice guy on the other hand, is observing her, deciding upon that chance viewing that her man is an asshole, and that HE, the nice guy deserves her more, and why do girls _always_ date asholes and so on. And let’s say that said girl IS with the worst man on the face of the planet. So? The default isn’t dating the man who “deserves” to “have” her the most. Again, we’re not possessions, we’re human beings. And whom we choose for our lovers isn’t done in order to say “see?? you’re just a nerd who doesn’t deserve me” to the Nice Guys of the world, it’s done entirely within her own world and has NOTHING to do with anyone but her and the guy. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/159 "2004-11-19T08:09:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I was again aiming it at the people who are saying, “But these guys are NICE, it’s YOUR FAULT! YOU WOMEN ARE STOOPID AND ONLY LIKE GUYS WHO ARE ASSHOLES!!!” Struck a raw nerve, did it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131/160 "2004-11-19T09:10:17Z")
> [@](#): > > …I started doing better **within** women when I entered graduate school,… . And after that, I but you started doing better WITH them too. 😃 Sorry, just teasing, that was a cute error in a good way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-pit-nice-guys/275131.md?page=9)