# In which I ruminate on the endemic nature of racism, and ponder why some can't see it **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2006, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617 "2006-05-21T06:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/41 "2006-05-22T19:01:12Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I tend to be idealistic and like to think I am liberal, but where does one draw the line? I loathe rap music and its culture-am I racist? Some of the aides at work have hinted as much. Why do I have to embrace an entire culture and even learn their language in order to be considered non-racist? I have no interest in Cinco de Mayo OR St Patrick’s Day (I’m protestant Irish). Where does diversity end and no cultural identity begin? This is what I struggle with. We’ve had our skirmishes on these Boards, but I just wanted to pop back in and tell you that you don’t sound like a racist to me–there’s no reason you need to have some special interest in another person’s culture. If you do, great, maybe you’ll learn something and have some fun while you’re at it, but if it’s not your thing, it’s not your thing. Nobody would tell a black person who confesses a deep loathing of the country/western culture and music that he’s a racist. I was often assumed racist at my elementary school, where I was one of five or six “white” kids in a really, really large class. Nevermind that I’m Jewish and that my family’s first American generation didn’t get here until the 20th century–I was seriously held personally responsible for slavery, lynchings and every Confederate victory by a lot of my fellow students. Their parents were all highly educated doctors, lawyers, etc. who you would think would be teaching their kids historical perspective. BTW, my parents didn’t educate me on race relations adequately either, IMO. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > The frustrating thing is when someone says, “Well, I am not a racist and I hate Barry Bonds, so there can’t be any racial motivation behind hatred of Barry Bonds.” Sounds like a classic straw man to me. I’m behind you on the other two points, though. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > People seem to have the idea that if it’s not outspoken and doesn’t involve someone in a hood, it isn’t racism. People will deny deny deny that they are racist in even small ways instead of accepting that they might be, and that it doesn’t mean they are ghastly people, it just means they need to be extremely aware of how their attitudes reflect on their actions. After all, Everyone is a Little Bit Racist. Seriously, though, you’re absolutely right and we need to acknowledge our inner racist instead of denying its existence. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > I don’t know, maybe I’m not making sense. I went to a school with 1 black boy. By HS there were maybe 25 blacks in my graduating class(847 kids in total)–they sat by themselves at lunch. Do I remember any overt action by anybody to ensure they did that? No.I cannot recall even one black kid in any of my classes, even gym class. Surely that must be just poor memory? > > Could I have done more in HS to help build a bridge? Maybe-it never occurred to me. I don’t remember them seeming to want or need a bridge. I was a wallflower in HS and just kept my head down–like most kids. I think that is true of most white adults as well(keeping their heads down). I would like to think that, anyway. But white flight still happens. An interesting thing happened in my high school. My freshman year was the year it was actually opened up for the first time, and 100 freshman and 50 sophomores were admitted. We all took the same classes and everyone knew everyone else, and lunch table configurations etc. pretty much ignored race, religion, etc. But two or three years in, new freshman classes started coming in and as the school’s student body inched towards 400 (at which it now stays constant) it got more and more self-segregated by race. By my junior year white kids hung out with whites, blacks with black, Asians with Asian, Hispanic with Hispanic etc. I was on the basketball team and the change was pretty obvious there too; we always had a pretty constant balance of whites, blacks and Latinos with one or two Asians or Pacific Islanders and again by my junior year the players on the team only hung out with teammates of the same race on their free time. It was really odd; I was kind of the odd man out because the other white kids on the team happened to be total jerks, so after a couple of years I couldn’t really hang out with any of my teammates. I quit the team in my senior year because it just wasn’t as fun as it was my first year. > [@you with the face](#): > > What I see is that you are getting way too caught up in a word, as if the word determines the nature of something rather than merely serving as an adjective. But it does. (Great combination of username/thread, BTW. 😉 ) Or at least, it’s often used that way. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > I know nothing of Barry Bonds; couldn’t care less about BB. I do indeed hate rap music and refuse to change my tastes to be PC. Who said anything about politicians? Not me. You are making huge assumptions and I resent it. The only thing I feel for single mothers is pity–and a strong desire to kick the GOP out of office so that social programs could actually help people who need it and not just make smug people feel righteous. Have you considered that this really does apply in the general and not the specific? I think **jsgoddess** is well aware that you’re not involved in any of those three areas. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/42 "2006-05-22T19:05:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > No, I think what African Americans want is for white people - that is, white people in particular - to lower their eyes, hang their heads and _admit_ to being racist. Then that magical something will happen. > > I just don’t see it. Presumably this would be followed by an admission of racism from same black folks - I don’t see it either. I think the best we all can do is teach our children as best we can. I would say I was raised without racism. However, I’ll also say my parents are more prejudiced than I am. And I in turn know people who are less prejudiced than I am. I do my best, but sometimes my instincts tell me something else. I’d like my child to not have those instincts. What more can I really do? ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/43 "2006-05-22T19:23:08Z")
Good stuff, for the most part, going on here. To be even willing to engage in a conversation about racism, and coming to terms with how it hurts us all, is a big step. I know for some folks it sounds hollow, but my experience has been that very smart, generally well-meaning liberally minded people like to act as if racism is the sole domain of knuckle-dragging troglodytes with white hoods. By picking the most extreme example, any less serious behavior can be glossed over. Note that I didn’t specify race of these said very smart, generally well-meaning liberally minded people. That’s because I know people of all races - and I would include myself in that number - who occasionally engage in prejudical, even racist behavior. [QUOTE=jsgoddess] The frustrating thing is when someone says, “Well, I am not a racist and I hate Barry Bonds, so there can’t be any racial motivation behind hatred of Barry Bonds.” Or “Well, I’m not a racist and I despise rap music, so there can’t be any racial component to politicians decrying rap music.” Or “Well, I’m not a racist and I am against single motherhood, so there can’t be any racial aspect to welfare reform.” [/QUOTE] This is fantastic, and I think exactly what I was trying to get at, thanks **jsgoddess**! The second example is particularly good to use. I see people denigrate rap, or hip hop in ways I don’t see death metal, hard rock, boy bands, and country, for example, reviled. The connection between violence and the music is tenuous - rap artists didn’t invent the idea of having posses, getting into fights, sexual misconduct, or objectifying women. I can easily think of examples of all these behaviors from many different musical genres. I also know that even though the media loves to report stories of rappers involved in these behaviors, they exist among all socioeconomic and racial groups - Duke lacrosse players, anyone? Furthermore, there are sizable numbers of rappers - and lacrosse players - who do not expressly engage in these negative behaviors. The most worrisome aspect of this is that it affects the life chances and opportunities for different people in disproportionate ways. I attend an Ivy League institution and I can point out examples of theft, assault, drug use and distribution, etc. among White students\* on a daily basis. Most of these situations never get to a criminal level - the behaviors are ignored or mildly rebuked. On the occasion that some of these actions rise to arrest or conviction, an often-heard rationalization is that the accused is a hard-working college student Meanwhile, a minority kid in the inner-city is much less likely to get the benefit of his or her theft, assault, drug use and distribution, etc. ignored or mildly rebuked. If one looks at all of the indicators we associate with better life opportunities - from infant mortality, to percentages of the population receiving prenatal care and health insurance, to college attendance and graduation rates, to income, to life expectancy - White Americans consistently come out on top while people of color tend to come out on the bottom. Either White Americans are superior and people of color are inferior in many ways, or there are factors that shuffle the deck in favor of Whites and against people of color. The latter makes a ton of sense to me, as I’ve encountered enough people from across racial groups to notice that good and bad behavior/intelligence/effort seems to be fairly equally distributed. That’s how I see it. While I am not White, I am male, and I see it exactly the same way for women. Men tend to surpass women in all of the economic indicators - the only way to explain that would be to state that men are superior to women, or that there are factors that make it simultaneously easier for men and more difficult for women to succeed. Having meet significant numbers of men and women varied in skill, intelligence, and drive to the point I can’t make meaningful associations of traits with either gender, it seems glaringly obvious to me that men are privileged in this society, and women are discriminated against. This doesn’t explain every negative outcome for a woman on the individual level, but at least in the professional world, I’d argue that it is a conflating factor. (I put this here only to make a point that I get what it is like to be privileged in some contexts and deconstruct and understand how privilege puts another group at a disadvantage - I really don’t want to jump tracks to a gender debate!) - Purely to help demonstrate my point. Black, Latino, Asian, South Asian, and Native American students get up to these behaviors as well. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/44 "2006-05-22T19:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ghanima] Presumably this would be followed by an admission of racism from same black folks - I don’t see it either. [/quote] Racism is a _people_ problem. It just so happens that it affects different people in different ways. It all depends on who is on top and who is on bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/45 "2006-05-22T19:46:12Z")
Racial bias is a spectrum of beliefs and behaviors. Racism is near the extreme end of it; xenophobia and ethnic cleansing are worse; I will also put forth the somewhat controversial opinion not all racial bias is necessarily bad nor are certain opinions formed from interracial experiences always inaccurate, especially if you’re reacting/anticipating behaviors from peoples you are regularly interacting with. Most people can’t SEE racism because most people have a skewed understanding of racial bias and tend to overcompensate by treating ALL racial bias as if it were the same as racism. As healthy and reasonable reactions go, this is untenable. We’d be a lot better off if we quit lumping all racial bias into the behavioral extreme/ideology of racism, and learn to recognize simple racial prejudice, racial discrimination, racial bigotry and racial xenophobia for the often faulty beliefs that they are. :: Riffing :: **Ghanima.** Oh, I’m definitely bigoted. Sometimes racist, too. **levdrakon.** I admit I get extremely annoyed with white Americans who won’t admit they and their families have (and in many cases still continue to) directly benefitted from racial privileges and racial discrimination that have mariginalized – not just blacks – but Latinos, Asians, Indians, Jews, etc. By extension, I and my family have been hurt at times by this same racial bias. This is changing, but this is still the reality in America. **jsgoddess.** It bears repeating: not all racial bias is racism. **elanorigby.** If a cultural indifference and disdain of a certain group’s traditions is reliable proof racism, then most probably everyone reading this is a racist. Obviously that’s not true. **fetus.** It’s closer to the truth that Everybody Is A Little Bit Racially Biased. That racial bias is benign or extreme, varying from person to person. **silenus.** Using racism, or indeed, any powerful, provokative word describing human behavior inappropriately tends to continue to empower the word and distract from the effect and underlying causes why that behavior exists. As to your noting the fluidity of your feelings regarding race, attractiveness and women, this a reason why racial/ethnic bias is a more accurate term. **you with the face.** I have said this before, and I’ll say it again: I disagree with most dictionaries because the second defintion of racism in the link you provided is typically incomplete: discrimination and prejudice based on race is NOT synonymous with actual racism. It reflects _bigotry._ Any definition of racism that does not include the use or threat of physical violence is as a means to enforce a belief in a mythical racial heirarchial superiority is not a good definition of racism. **Hippy Hollow.** Most of your OP described racial prejudice, discrimination, racial bias and ethnocentrism, rather than racism. This is not always A Bad Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/46 "2006-05-22T20:00:37Z")
The definition **you with the face** provides for racism is certainly valid. I’d suggest, though, that if _any_ change in behaviour/interactions based on race is going to be defined as racist, then at some mild level it’s perfectly acceptable to be racist, because having some response to difference and/or cultural messages is absolutely unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/47 "2006-05-22T20:36:07Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > After jumping in yet another race-related thread (against my better judgment), I’m hoping to have a conversation - not a debate, God, I’m so sick of debates on this topic - about racism. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/48 "2006-05-22T20:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] The definition **you with the face** provides for racism is certainly valid. I’d suggest, though, that if _any_ change in behaviour/interactions based on race is going to be defined as racist, then at some mild level it’s perfectly acceptable to be racist, because having some response to difference and/or cultural messages is absolutely unavoidable. [/QUOTE] If someone says something is racist, that declaration is not enough to convince me that my heart should palpitate and that my eyes should bulge with outrage. In order to get me fired up, it has to be obvious why something that is supposedly racist could lead to harm. Which means the conversation should include more than just name-calling. I’ve said it plenty of times on this board: just because something is racist doesn’t mean it is offensive. People all too often want to use the terms interchangably, so that the simple act of labeling something racist means they don’t have to explain why its such a big deal. Because, you know, that actually takes work. It’s far easier to just stick a label on something and hope that is enough, but for me, it rarely is enough. When folks tried to convince why Nagin should be hated because his “chocolate city” remarks, I was left unpersuaded when all they could say was “But he’s being racist!” or “Had he been white, he’da been slaughtered!” My response was and still is, yes and so what? Give me more of a reason to hate the guy than that, please. This type of thing strikes me as intellectually laziness. Not something that should be promoted. I don’t believe “racism” should be used as weapon, ever. Most people here probably would say they agree with me. But when attempts to diffuse the word of all its “impact and power” are met with dogged resistance, it makes me wonder why. You can’t decry the weaponization of the term while clinging, at the same time, to the notion that only Really Really Bad People can be racist. That’s like handing your opponent ammo and not expecting them to use it against you in the heat of battle. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/49 "2006-05-22T20:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] What’s the difference? [/QUOTE] Conversations are for fun, debates are for points. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/50 "2006-05-22T20:59:22Z")
Hippy I think I understand the point you are trying to make and I think I agree with it. While there is a racism part to Bonds being disliked, the other threads Op blew it out of proportion. I am not colorblind, I don’t know how to be, but I like to think I don’t let it affect my judgment {much}. I was in a thread arguing almost by myself with posters I normally agree with defending Al Sharpton at one point. You should have joined in that one last year. There is a lot of racism still left in this country and in the world. We have made a lot of progress. Irrational claims that the white man is keeping Bonds down, does more to hurt the way people view racism than the idiots who do not want to see Bonds get past Ruth. At least that is my opinion. Someone up thread asked if the Bonds was surly to the press first or the press was on Bonds first. Bonds was surly first. When he broke in the press wanted to cover him. Son of an All Star, they loved the story and wanted to love the kid. It was Bonds have acted like a jerk all along. Jim ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/51 "2006-05-22T21:36:19Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] Racial bias is a spectrum of beliefs and behaviors. Racism is near the extreme end of it; xenophobia and ethnic cleansing are worse; I will also put forth the somewhat controversial opinion not all racial bias is necessarily bad nor are certain opinions formed from interracial experiences always inaccurate, especially if you’re reacting/anticipating behaviors from peoples you are regularly interacting with. Most people can’t SEE racism because most people have a skewed understanding of racial bias and tend to overcompensate by treating ALL racial bias as if it were the same as racism. As healthy and reasonable reactions go, this is untenable. [/QUOTE] This seems quite reasonable. Thank you. As for rap getting a bad er, rap: I don’t like the rhythms of rap or the lyrics. I don’t like much hiphop–I’m middle aged. I also don’t like “rock” like Marilyn Manson or that ilk. Stating a dislike of rap music doesn’t mean that any or all other music is in comparison good–it’s a matter of taste. If there is legislation strictly aimed at rap vs rock or country or classical for that matter–that’s a different kettle of fish. **fetus** -you’re right, and I said as much in my previous post. This can be a touchy subject. It needs to be talked about more often and more publicly. There is an ongoing project in my community called “Healing Racism” which has done much good, IMO in qwelling white flight here and in helping everyone become better neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/52 "2006-05-22T22:41:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] After jumping in yet another race-related thread (against my better judgment), I’m hoping to have a conversation - not a debate, God, I’m so sick of debates on this topic - about racism. [/QUOTE] Nevertheless, given the topic and most of the responses so far… Moved from IMHO to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/53 "2006-05-23T01:21:50Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] After jumping in yet another race-related thread (against my better judgment), I’m hoping to have a conversation - not a debate, God, I’m so sick of debates on this topic - about racism. For all of the wonderful things about the SDMB that I enjoy, I resolutely avoid - well, as much as I can - discussing racism. Why? Well, because I have some unwavering beliefs that seem to be always challenged whenever the topic comes up. First, I believe that it is in our very nature as humans - at least this iteration we’ve seen for the past several thousand years - to notice difference. Difference in height, shape, skin color, eye color, etc. etc. We also have a difficult time with difference. While our intellectual brains seem to understand and appreciate how difference helps and accentuates our world, our animal brains seeks out the familiar and suspects the unfamiliar. I mean, in an animal sense, this seems to be a good trait to a degree. When wandering around in caveman times, it was probably good to recognize and rally around those like you for protection, help with the hunt, etc. My experience with kids suggests this is the case. While they are very concerned about how nice, or mean, people are, they also are quick to describe people in the most obvious phenotypical descriptors: he’s White, he’s Asian, he’s tall, he’s skinny, etc. Later on we learn this “it’s not polite to notice race, or physical size” crap. (Once on my college campus, I was seeking out an administrator to arrange an interview for an internship. I encountered three White people who tried to help me find this woman, whom I’d never met and had only had contact with via e-mail. I had all of these great descriptions of her clothing, her height, even where she was last seen - but the only person who thought to tell me that she was Black was an Asian work-study student. Well, of course I found her in two seconds. The campus isn’t that diverse!) So - we naturally notice difference, and are at least - curious? unsure? about those who differ from us (significantly) in phenotype. We all have varying degrees of comfort about negotiating those differences - on one extreme end, some people actually find it fun and enriching to learn about others who are different and even go as far to see the common ground we share on some level, while others on the polar end of the spectrum are frightened and threatened by difference to the point they will avoid or eradicate it at all costs. Most people are in-between, I suspect. To take the example of the United States - which I do because I am an American, and it’s the country I’m most familiar with - we have a historical record flavored with racism. From the very idea that one could own land occupied by others without engaging in compensation, to Manifest Destiny, to slavery, to various exclusion acts versus virtually every recognizable immigrant group to this nation, we’ve done it here. That’s not to say that it hasn’t been done everywhere else. The second part of this is that this nation, in my opinion, never had a sustained period of time when the nation mood was reflective of these actions, and how certain groups of people were unjustly treated. The most extreme examples of racism and prejudice, of course, are reviled in polite society, but I think this means that the stuff in the middle is never addressed. Thus we have a divide in this country, where sizable numbers of the citizenry believe that a person’s social location, public perception, are wholly independent of race, class, gender, ethnicity, and so forth - and folks like me who think it’s impossible to consider that the way we perceive a person is greatly based on those very things. I’m not sure if I’m being clear, but in essence, what I’m saying is: I don’t understand how anyone who has lived in the United States during the time that I have, at least, can think that racism doesn’t exist, and affects people in a very real way on a daily basis. Not just people of color, but also White people. Do we overcompensate or excuse certain behaviors of some people because of their race, or conversely discriminate and harshly condemn others for the same reasons? Then there’s the predictable reaction, which I am pretty sick of hearing, to be perfectly honest, that yes, racism exists, but “in this specific instance” it’s virtually irrelevant. While I can accept that for an individual, it is possible that one identifies as an accepter and appreciater of difference, I think it’s logical to assume that the 300 million others in this country may not quite be at that level. Can someone help me understand the urge to immediately dismiss racism as an explanation - not the sole one, or perhaps in one’s mind, the major one - for negative societal outcomes? What is the harm in understanding, “Yes, being prejudged and penalized, however slightly, based on one’s skin color, accent, physical features, or parentage, is a considerable barrier to success and happiness?” The second part, of course, is the fact that a) virtually all people have barriers to success and happiness, and b) despite said barriers, many people do achieve success and happiness. But I don’t see how sincerely acknowledging the barriers to people reaching their full potential negates points a) and b). I’m rambling a bit because it’s late, but I think this nation needs to reflect on our history and take a proactive step if we expect to move forward dealing with difference as the country becomes more diverse by the minute… Hope I haven’t turned some of you off from responding with the long rant. I could cite academic texts all day to argue my perspective, but at some level, I just want to know what people think about this. [/QUOTE] I think you’d really enjoy this book > **[Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind: Berreby, David: 9780316090308:...](https://www.amazon.com/Us-Them-Understanding-Your-Tribal/dp/0316090301)** > > Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind \[Berreby, David\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind I found it to be very interesting and the author goes in depth with things like group mentality, how we break ourselves into groups along lines of race, class, ethnicity, religion, appearance, nationality, etc. The tools we use to distinguish ourselves are far more diverse than just skin color. I personally find modern american racism to be a mild nuisance at best. Compared to the genocides that have occured due to nationality or ethnicity being more likely to be pulled over by the police a few times is a mild problem. Other ‘us vs them’ traits are far more damaging to us as a nation. It is redundant coming from me as I have posted on the issue before but our cultural love of thinness and disgust/fear of bodyfat is far more damaging to the individuals living here than our cultural love of light skin and disgust/fear of dark skin. It affects and harms far more people than racism. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/54 "2006-05-23T01:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I think racism affects us in ways we don’t even recognize, and in ways we do. I have experienced the incredible stupidity of, say, being on an elevator alone when a black man gets on and then worrying that my normal elevator behavior of studied indifference might be perceived as racism, so then I try to make adjustments to make sure that I don’t come off as a racist when I’m trying too hard not to come off as a racist. It’s like something out of a bad movie. [/QUOTE] Sounds like a Seinfeld episode. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/55 "2006-05-23T01:30:26Z")
Personally I’d like to see racism defined strictly as a feeling that a particular race is superior or inferior, evidenced by clearly intentioned words and actions. It’s an overall repugnant worldview and should not be casually invoked to describe someone who may just be inexperienced in a multicultural world. When you do that, you basically eliminate any possibility of opening a dialogue and having an exchange of understanding. Something else I don’t like about the charge of racism is that it is invariably a one-way affair. Racial oppression is essentially one-sided but racist attitudes are definitely not. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/56 "2006-05-23T01:47:32Z")
Over recent years, I’ve started to come to the conclusion that racial bigotry is still extremely prevalent, and I’m not convinced that it’s less so than it was 40-50 years ago. We’ve just changed what forms of it we’re willing to tolerate as a society, and it’s therefore been interwoven with other issues. That’s not to say that everyone who supports those issues is prejudiced, but the prejudiced have found a new home, and it’s a bit prettier, at least on the outside. I’m actually torn whether this is worse or better than it was before. At least it was possible to be outraged by the maltreatment of minorities when they were openly treated as second-class citizens, but how does one today decide if that “State’s rights” advocate is truly against an overpowered federal government or simply a bigot hiding behind an issue? Yes, many of them eventually trip up and get “outed”, but that’s not common enough for the problem to be as visible as it once was, and it therefore doesn’t get the level of debate and attention that is needed to help reduce it. We used to know immediately where someone stood. Now it takes a pattern of behavior (or a screwup) to even warrant suspicion of bias. Aside from the fact that lynchings seem to have disappeared, is this hidden bigotry better or worse than the open bigotry of yore? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/57 "2006-05-23T02:04:45Z")
**DMC** , its a bit of both. Overt instances of both racism and bigotry are fewer and far less widespread than 40-50 years ago. I’d say this was the case in most industrialized countries in the world, not just the United States. But in those havens where these attitudes are thriving, where racists and bigots of all races can chat amongst themselves and be plain spoken in their prejudice, hatred and receive a warm audience that doesn’t challenge their thinking, they are both virulent and intractable. Hidden bigotry is better because it makes those attitudes seem even more sad, outdated and distasteful whenever they do come to light ion the mainstream and diverse audiences. It’s worse because it’s more difficult to guage, oppose and counter. This is why I advocate going to places like [Stormfront message boards](http://www.stormfront.org/forum) and keeping a watchful eye on them fools. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/58 "2006-05-23T02:35:31Z")
I really do think things have gotten better. It is far from perfect, but things are improving. Just observing many more mixed couples seems like a good indicator things have been improving or am I sheltered living in the “Liberal North East”? Jim ---
**Author:** ![Frosted\_Glass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frosted_glass/32/3926_2.png) [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/59 "2006-05-23T03:26:32Z")
First, I would like to say that this is an excellent thread so far. I have rarely participated in discussions of race relations that have been this productive. One advantage to having been raised in the “Liberal North East” is that the likelihood of me encountering blatant violent racism is very low. Instead I am subject to a more subtle form of bigotry. I liken this behavior to trying to run on a course littered with cinder blocks. As well as I may maneuver through it most of the time I will eventually fall on my face. The people, who handle these biases in the best fashion, are those who are capable of educating the offender while maintaining their own values and self-esteem. This is a lovely thought but it is not as practical as it may sound. In ninth grade, I was one of the kids who sat at the “black” table during lunch. My grade had a black population of 14/680. Six of us happened to share a lunch period and we all sat together mainly due to comfort. It is easy to sit with people who share your interests and background because then you do not have to worry about saying anything that might set you too far apart from the group. The thing is, we had similar conversations to everyone else in that room. Complaining about schoolwork, talking about crazy parents, discussing the cute girl/boy in whatever class; none of this is that different from any other ninth grade. Still, no one really felt comfortable sitting with us. We had an entire table to ourselves and our lunch tables sat 20 comfortably. Imagine how ridiculous it must look for people to walk in and see a packed lunchroom (our school was overcrowded) and this one table with excess space. It took me a long time to realize that the main reason people were hesitant to come over and make themselves at home was because of their preconceptions. One white girl from my Biology class told me about it when I offered to help her with a lab during lunch. She told me that she was hesitant to sit there because she did not want to upset anyone and she did not want to invite herself into our group. I laughed but it gave me a lot to think about. Some people just have not had the benefit of interacting with other races. They get most of their information from television and stories that they have heard. It sounds ridiculous to many, but in numerous cases it is the truth. No matter how mature a person is people still want to feel comfortable with their surroundings. No one wants to worry about offending people by saying the wrong thing or by saying nothing at all. Unfortunately developing a high level of comfort in foreign situations is based on trial and error. I learned pretty early on that no one in the football locker room gave a damn about the crazy chemical equation that I balanced in class earlier. Sometimes people do not realize that telling their favorite black joke might be a bad way to break the ice at a table of blacks telling jokes. How people deal with their failed attempts will ultimately govern what they try in the future, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/60 "2006-05-23T12:34:45Z")
My wife and I were talking about Barry Bonds and sports last night a little because of the threads here. She feels there is very little racism in baseball, the people with bigotry have probably tuned-out, as so many players are Caribbean at this point. The sportswriters and announcer all seem to embrace the Multiculturalism of modern sports. It made me wonder, did the increase popularity of NASCAR, a very white and very southern sport coincide with the heavy influx of foreign-born players? Is this some of the latent racism manifesting itself that was discussed in this thread? I apologize for how ignorant this question might sound, but I live, eat and breathe baseball in one of the few regions of the country where baseball is still the #1 sport. I know almost nothing about NASCAR or why it has grown so popular. NASCAR is still a minor sport in my area. Jim {BTW: great post Frosted Glass} [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617.md?page=4)