# In which Mangetout takes the upper hand with telemarketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919 "2004-10-18T22:11:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/221 "2004-10-27T14:54:07Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > This has anything to do with what? Telemarketing? My first guess since somebody was calling **jsgoddess** and trying to sell magazines. > [@calm kiwi](#): > > Or as my new best mate **Mangetout** would say STRAWMAN. I’m going to say calling “strawman” on that is itself a strawman argument. > [@calm kiwi](#): > > Unless of course you are suggesting all telemarketers are perves. I didn’t see that suggested. It did however suggest that some telemarketers seem to enjoy annoying people. It also reinforced my statements that telemarketers are assholes. It’s OK **KIWI** , I’m sure all of us can admit to being some kind of asshole for a month or so. Don’t be so hard on yourself. You don’t need to defend your long ago temporary state of assholiness to us. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/222 "2004-10-27T17:01:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Anyone defending telemarketing to me is going to have to defend these people as well. Given the nature of “these people”, that’s not unadjacent to saying that anyone defending street vendors also has to defend muggers. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/223 "2004-10-27T17:30:19Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Given the nature of “these people”, that’s not unadjacent to saying that anyone defending street vendors also has to defend muggers. It’s even more adjacent to saying that anyone who works as a teacher has to defend the ones you read about in the news, or anyone who works in nursing has to defend the ones that steal drugs, etc. Sorry, I don’t think I should be held accountable for the actions of others in my industry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/224 "2004-10-27T18:49:57Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Given the nature of “these people”, that’s not unadjacent to saying that anyone defending street vendors also has to defend muggers. While the first two people were obviously psychos and can’t be defended, how about their products and tactics? How about calling a business, saying you have a manual for their copier, getting the information from them, sending them a manual, charging them for it, all because of your slick line of patter? How about calling from “Ameritech SBC” and saying you’re a third party biller authorized by Ameritech SBC? How about calling about a magazine, sending free issues, then sending a massive bill? You see, I’m not just complaining about the psychos. I’m complaining about things that may be legal but sure as hell aren’t right. And it’s not a few telemarketers here or there. It’s hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of calls. Do you know how much stuff we get in the mail? Free samples, but they’ll send a bill later, magazines that we “ordered,” but no one here said yes, reference materials that we don’t need and would never have agreed to take? Do you know how many times SBC changed our long-distance carrier because they were told we agreed to it, and do you know that if someone changes your long-distance carrier, even if it’s without your permission, SBC charges you to change it back? Do you know how many times I’ve had to explain to new receptionists that if anyone calls about the copier or the printer or toner it’s a scam? Do you know how many calls I’ve ended having to take because a receptionist can’t tell a telemarketer from a legitimate call? Do you know how many times we get a dozen calls in a week all offering the same safety program and all asking for the same person who hasn’t worked here for ten years, but they won’t stop calling until you threaten them with legal action? These aren’t exceptions. This is the way the industry works. This is the way they have designed their industry. This is the way they have chosen to do business. This is the way they do things. This is not a small handful of anomalies. This is every fucking day of my working life. So, if someone is going to defend telemarketers, they are going to have to defend what telemarketers actually _do_. I’m not interested in what the job might be, in theory. I want a defense of what actually happens. If that can’t be defended, then telemarketing can’t be defended. Otherwise, you might as well attempt to defend some other non-existent entity, like a tall Oompa-Loompa. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/225 "2004-10-27T20:51:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > While the first two people were obviously psychos and can’t be defended, how about their products and tactics? > > How about calling a business, saying you have a manual for their copier, getting the information from them, sending them a manual, charging them for it, all because of your slick line of patter? > > How about calling from “Ameritech SBC” and saying you’re a third party biller authorized by Ameritech SBC? > > How about calling about a magazine, sending free issues, then sending a massive bill? > > You see, I’m not just complaining about the psychos. I’m complaining about things that may be legal but sure as hell aren’t right. Matters may differ in the US, but in the UK these things are _not_ legal. Bitch to your senator, not to me. Until then, as I said before, you cannot lump the bods trying legitimately to sell something but annoying you in the process with a bunch of scamming criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/226 "2004-10-27T20:56:16Z")
Sorry, **jsgoddess** , that came out a little harsher than I intended it to. The bit about bitching to your senator was my opinion of what you should be doing, not criticism. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/227 "2004-10-27T21:21:52Z")
Oh FuckCryinOutLoud. You already shit all over this thread **Evil Death**. Why throw out a wimpy apology now? You just don’t seem to be able to distinguish between law breaking and ethics. No one **cares** that telemarketers are legal. The plain fact is that they are **ASSHOLES!** Scammers have one very large thing in common with telemarketers. They are using the phone system to make a pitch for money - to people who DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED BY THEM! I know, I know - argue with the idiot and observers may not be able to tell which is which ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/228 "2004-10-27T22:26:47Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > No one dies, no one is rude, **no one suffers**. If you truly can’t give one minute to be polite you either need a new personality or a new job ( if it is that stressful). _(Bolding mine)_ I’m guessing you’ve never had mobility problems? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/229 "2004-10-28T01:32:33Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > No **CanvasShoes** that wasn’t directed at you, just at the thread in general (though for some reason I thought **Miller** was a lot cooler and calmer before this thread). If you meant “cooler” in the sense of “more level-headed,” then yeah, normally, I am. This issue is a sore point with me. If you meant “cooler” in the sense of “hip or stylish” then you were _waaaaay_ off, dude. Now, on any other subject, this isn’t the sort of argument I’d dream of making, but if you’re not an American, you really don’t know jack about telemarketing. It’s a whole different ball of wax in this country. Before the DNC, telemarketing calls were _constant_. Always, without exception, at least five a day. Often upwards of twenty. And being polite? Here’s how being polite to a telemarketer works around here: Shitheel: Hello, would you like to… Me: I’m sorry, I’m not interested. Would you please put me on your do not call list? Shitheel: Douche. \ He was one of the nice ones. I’ve had telemarketers get the operator to _interupt in the middle of a phone call_ to sell me crap I don’t want. These people are shameless and without morals. **TellMeImNotCrazy** , you’re not a blameless worker being held account for a few bad apples. You’re more like the concentration camp guard who let a few Jews escape. _You_ may be a decent person, but you were the exception to your occupation. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/230 "2004-10-28T05:00:34Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Oh come on **kiwi** , you can do better than that; for one thing, my mother is not so ignorant as to phone at dinnertime and even if she did, there is the not insignificant fact that _she’s my mother_ - a person I actually desire to speak with… Not to mention, with your mom, you can just say “mom, I just sat down to dinner, I’m starving” and she’ll reply “okay honey, call me back when you are done”, not "Oh, but wait, I’ve got this really good deal, you **HAVE** to listen…blahblahblah (won’t shut up you have to end up hanging up)… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/231 "2004-10-28T05:14:27Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I agree **Mangetout** I expect to know who it is that is ringing me (though some are annoying anyway). I also expect to find letter adressed to me in my letter box, but guess what I find…AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH JUNK MAIL (I notice everyone picked apart my “do you want fries with that” example but no one touched the junk mail example). Likely not to ignore your example, but because they were too busy with the anti telemarketer part of this “debate”. Anyway, there is a difference, a big one. Mail, even just junk mail sits there and waits for YOU to go to it. It doesn’t jump out of the box, and come annoy you when you’re busy doing other stuff. Nor does it argue and get all aggressive and hardsell on your butt as you’re throwing it away in the garbage. So even though its presence is annoying and uninvited, it’s dealt with in mere nanoseconds, and only after YOU’VE pursued IT (by going to your mailbox). So even with junk mail, you still have more of a choice in the matter than with telemarketing calls. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/232 "2004-10-28T07:26:15Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Not to mention, with your mom, you can just say “mom, I just sat down to dinner, I’m starving” and she’ll reply “okay honey, call me back when you are done”, not "Oh, but wait, I’ve got this really good deal, you **HAVE** to listen…blahblahblah (won’t shut up you have to end up hanging up)… > > 😃 Clearly your mother, unlike mine, is prepared to take no for an answer. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/233 "2004-10-28T10:11:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Clearly your mother, unlike mine, is prepared to take no for an answer. You must be my long lost twin…or our mothers are anyway. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/234 "2004-10-28T10:13:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you meant “cooler” in the sense of “more level-headed,” then yeah, normally, I am. This issue is a sore point with me. If you meant “cooler” in the sense of “hip or stylish” then you were _waaaaay_ off, dude. I meant in the level headed way…dude. I have noticed this is a sore point for you. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/235 "2004-10-28T10:15:49Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Don’t be so hard on yourself. You don’t need to defend your long ago temporary state of assholiness to us. This is good news. I shall make good use of my get-out-or-arseholishness-free card 😃 ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/236 "2004-10-28T10:17:32Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Likely not to ignore your example, but because they were too busy with the anti telemarketer part of this “debate”. > > Anyway, there is a difference, a big one. Mail, even just junk mail sits there and waits for YOU to go to it. It doesn’t jump out of the box, and come annoy you when you’re busy doing other stuff. Nor does it argue and get all aggressive and hardsell on your butt as you’re throwing it away in the garbage. > > So even though its presence is annoying and uninvited, it’s dealt with in mere nanoseconds, and only after YOU’VE pursued IT (by going to your mailbox). So even with junk mail, you still have more of a choice in the matter than with telemarketing calls. But Junk mail needs to be taken up the long driveway! You pick what annoys you more and I will do the same 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/237 "2004-10-28T10:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] You’re trying really really hard to find the appropriate strawman, aren’t you? How many more things are you going to hang on the anti-telemarketers participating in this thread in some desperate attempt to make it seem we are saying something unreasonable? [QUOTE] I think you are over reacting. Shoot me. It’s not a desperate attempt just trying to explain that not everyone is so easily rattled. I’m not trying to take away your fun 🙂 > [@](#): > > You took on an unethical job and annoyed a shitload of people because you wanted the money . You don’t like this being put in front of your face because you feel guilty about it. Get over it. I feel no guilt. And unethical? Hey I wasn’t a tv preacher 😃 ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/238 "2004-10-28T10:24:19Z")
Well I should have done one big response. Now I do feel guilty 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/239 "2004-10-28T10:28:10Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > But Junk mail needs to be taken up the long driveway! You pick what annoys you more and I will do the same 🙂 Nobody is saying you shouldn’t get annoyed about things that annoy you; nobody is asserting that their annoyance over telemarketing nuisance trumps your annoyance over junk mail, pushy fast food staff or tricky bottle tops. Nobody is even suggesting that telemarketing is the number one annoyance in their personal hit parade. Please tell me that you do understand this. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919/240 "2004-10-28T10:31:12Z")
I do 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-mangetout-takes-the-upper-hand-with-telemarketers/269919.md?page=13)