# In which Miller oversteps his bounds... **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068 "2011-07-23T07:20:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/81 "2011-07-24T00:29:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Still not following you. Are you saying that ATMB is not the forum for discussions of mod actions? Or that Miller shouldn’t explain his actions at all? > > **If it is merely a backhanded way of accusing me of trolling** , then never mind. > > Regards, > Shodan The bolded part you got right. It was fishing terminology. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/82 "2011-07-24T06:12:43Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > The bolded part you got right. It was fishing terminology. 😉 But trolling uses long lines, not nets (that’s “trawling”). If people are going to dance around the rule about not calling someone a troll outside the Pit, they should do so competently. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/83 "2011-07-24T07:20:05Z")
**Starving Artist** is grossly misrepresenting what happened in his recounting of that thread. To say that the response “This post utterly fails to surprise me” is an “insult” tells me everything I need to know about what **SA** is claiming here. His response to **Bosstone** is more insulting by far. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/84 "2011-07-24T08:05:24Z")
I guess this is about as close to a Pit thread as I’m ever likely to get. My first post in that thread probably was something of a hijack, though not a wildly divergent one if so. I should have just ignored **Starving Artist** , but I saw the opportunity for a brief shot and took it. The Pit’s where I post for amusement value, not necessarily serious discussion. That said? While I may have poked **SA** for his first remark, I’m not the one who proceeded to raise a godawful racket. (Had I posted before **SA** joined the thread saying something like “Countdown before **SA** comes in to defend **Susanann** ,” it would definitely be all on me.) I posted briefly, and I damn well stepped away from the argument when I said I would. Between my last post and **Miller** ’s, there were three posts from **SA** , all directed at other posters and having nothing to do with me besides a brief mention. I will not be held responsible for what **SA** chooses to do. Maybe I did kick off a hijack, but I was far from the only participant and I shut up well before **Miller** felt it necessary to say something. So, you know, tough cookies. Aside: I do think a lot of times, when you have a poster who gets “Oh, it’s the So-and-so show” on a regular basis, it’s because their personality manages to rub other posters in such the wrong way that they have a difficult time not responding, which is usually the better choice. I think that’s more on the responders (specifically me in this case) than the poster in question, though not entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/85 "2011-07-24T08:50:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **Miller** : As I noted earlier, this behavior will get you moderated regardless of your position on the political spectrum. Telling someone to shut up is not moderating. That **Miller** would claim that it is shows a lack of personal integrity on his part. I suspect his mother taught him better manners than that. Of course, I could be wrong. The insulting and abusive order to “shut up” had, at best, only the most tenuous connection to moderation. **“Shut Up,” He Explained** is a funny sounding title for a reason. It is contradictory. But just in case he doesn’t agree that it was insulting, he might look at the result and reconsider. The message intended is not always the message that is delivered. Obviously it _was_ insulting whether he intended it to be a friendly little reminder or not. Now if he were a blond fashion designer named Rachel Zoe, he could get away with it. BTW, **Jain** , I didn’t understand your meaning either. Your reference was a little unclear. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/86 "2011-07-24T09:34:35Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Telling someone to shut up is not moderating. That **Miller** would claim that it is shows a lack of personal integrity on his part. I suspect his mother taught him better manners than that. Of course, I could be wrong. The insulting and abusive order to “shut up” had, at best, only the most tenuous connection to moderation. **“Shut Up,” He Explained** is a funny sounding title for a reason. It is contradictory. > > But just in case he doesn’t agree that it was insulting, he might look at the result and reconsider. The message intended is not always the message that is delivered. Obviously it _was_ insulting whether he intended it to be a friendly little reminder or not. Now if he were a blond fashion designer named Rachel Zoe, he could get away with it. > > BTW, **Jain** , I didn’t understand your meaning either. Your reference was a little unclear. Manners are not relevant in the Pit. And mods aren’t required to be mannerly even outside the pit. And it is moderation to tell someone what they are and aren’t allowed to do. Starving Artist was told to “Shut up,” meaning he was no longer allowed to talk in that thread. Granted, it was vague, but that’s why you can PM a mod, or start a thread in ATMB. But to anyone who was paying attention, **SA** was clearly being told to stop hijacking the thread. Even **SA** figured it out. So what if it hurts his feelings? Don’t post in the Pit if your feelings get hurt by things five-year-olds say to one another. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/87 "2011-07-24T09:41:01Z")
Heck, I’d say that your post, in chastising Miller for his upbringing, is far less “mannerly,” and it’s perfectly acceptable in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/88 "2011-07-24T10:32:07Z")
Posted by BigT. > [@](#): > > Manners are not relevant in the Pit. And mods aren’t required to be mannerly even outside the pit. When preforming the duties of a moderator, they certainly should be. This is I think what bothers me the most about all of this. To Zoe: Didn’t mean to single you out as a poster, wasn’t doing so in my first reference in this thread. Although my comments were, I admit, a little off the wall, was referring to Starving Artist’s political views being unpopular - what I feel is the main reason he was dealt with as harshly and snarkily the way he was. And all the hear! hearing! as the “clique group” aspect. Around here there are certain posters that when the pack gets a certain wind of, they then become open season, piled on by the masses at the drop of a hat. Bosstone: I don’t agree with your entire explanation (obviously). But you sir are a class act, respect what you’ve contributed elsewhere, and esp here in this discussion. I certainly respect you as a poster, and I certainly agree you should not be held solely responsible for the exchange in that thread. Perhaps Starving Artist did defend his political views with more detail than needed. But he did continue to be attacked, should not be blamed for responding. Those that are blaming him for committing a highjack of sorts are not being impartial to what really happened, imo. PlainJain: Don’t you owe us a **genuine** SD gallery pic of yourself? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/89 "2011-07-24T12:23:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > If people are going to dance around the rule about not calling someone a troll outside the Pit, they should do so competently. :dubious: I was not accusing **Shodan** of trolling. I meant to imply his method of debate in this case is insincere. His claims that he doesn’t understand why **SA** ’s comments were a highjack don’t ring true. He seems to have read way too much into **Miller** ’s two word post. Feigning innocence and accusing **Miller** of locking **SA** out of that thread are bunk, IMO. As is the notion that **SA** was moderated for “coming to the defense of an unpopular poster”. > [@the lone cashew](#): > > PlainJain: Don’t you owe us a genuine SD gallery pic of yourself? WTF? In point of fact, no, I don’t owe you a god damn thing. What the hell does that have to do with anything I’ve said in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/90 "2011-07-24T12:30:33Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > But trolling uses long lines, not nets (that’s “trawling”). If people are going to dance around the rule about not calling someone a troll outside the Pit, they should do so competently. :dubious: I didn’t say it was **competently** done. I merely pointed out that it _was_ done. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/91 "2011-07-24T12:40:15Z")
I do not agree with **Starving Artist’s** political views or social commentary. I do not know if his original post “correcting” the op was factual or not. I have no opinion on whether his subsequent posts constitute a hijack. I have no opinion on **Miller’s** overall record as a moderator. But to to call “Shut up” moderating is ridiculous. It was lazy and incompetent. It lacked any explanation. It was dictatorial in tone. It was insulting and dismissive to **SA**. Nearly every public moderator action I’ve ever seen on this board has at a minimum an explanation of the offense and directions to correct or not offend again. I know moderators are volunteers, thanks to all of them. But this was an instance of poor moderating. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/92 "2011-07-24T12:58:03Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Moral of the story? Don’t act like a jackass. Simple. Just wanted to keep things in perspective. You post things like the above, and you laud mods for volunteering their time. Yet you waste the time of a volunteer to post not only bogus pics but those that are copyrighted. So your high horse tone is unearned - in this thread - or any other. You of all people have no right to call Starving Artist rude. Here. Or anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/93 "2011-07-24T13:29:10Z")
> [@Batfish](#): > > But to to call “Shut up” moderating is ridiculous. I know moderators are volunteers, thanks to all of them. But this was an instance of poor moderating. Well, I’ll disagree. I thought it refreshingly to the point. **SA** has a habit of latching onto some minor point to preach his prejudicial views, hammering the same rehetorical nail over and over again, usually in ever-increasing walls of text, as if repetition somehow makes his arguments more valid than the first time he stated them. The thread looked headed for a typically tedious **SA** blatherfest and **Miller** cut to the chase. No issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/94 "2011-07-24T15:57:40Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > Just wanted to keep things in perspective. You post things like the above, and you laud mods for volunteering their time. Yet you waste the time of a volunteer to post not only bogus pics but those that are copyrighted. So your high horse tone is unearned - in this thread - or any other. > > You of all people have no right to call Starving Artist rude. Here. Or anywhere else. Oh sure I do, sweetie. If someone is rude, any of us can call them on it - high horse or no - and SA was rude in that thread by continually highjacking it… even though he was repeatedly asked not to. For those playing at home, the pic was posted in error and **tlc** knows it. When did you develop such a hard on for me anyway? Kinda flattering actually… ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/95 "2011-07-24T16:31:04Z")
“Shut up” seems like shitty modding to me, whether a mod note is deserved or not. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/96 "2011-07-24T16:34:04Z")
I think all the mods should be required to consult _Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior_ before posting any mod note or warning. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/97 "2011-07-24T16:46:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I think all the mods should be required to consult _Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior_ before posting any mod note or warning. And ask the miscreant in a PM beforehand how they would like to be addressed, “Sir/Madam,” “Kind Sir/Madam,” or “Noble-born.” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/98 "2011-07-24T16:54:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > And ask the miscreant in a PM beforehand how they would like to be addressed, “Sir/Madam,” “Kind Sir/Madam,” or “Noble-born.” Ooh, I want Noble-born. Sounds fancy. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/99 "2011-07-24T16:55:08Z")
\*\*Starving Artist \*\*was rude in The Pit? (Gasp!) ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068/100 "2011-07-24T17:35:32Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Oh sure I do, sweetie. If someone is rude, any of us can call them on it - high horse or no - and SA was rude in that thread by continually highjacking it… even though he was repeatedly asked not to. > > For those playing at home, the pic was posted in error and **tlc** knows it. > When did you develop such a hard on for me anyway? Kinda flattering actually… If disliking the fact that you submitted the bogus pic constitutes a “hard on” for you, then so be it. In the context of this thread I am suggesting that instead of handshaking mods for their volunteer time, you’re likely simply one of those ganging up on the poster who started this thread. As far as the gallery is concerned, Arnold Wrinkleried has volunteered his time to create and maintain a picture gallery. The gallery was meant to provide opportunity for this internet community to present their likeness, to in effect say “hey. This is me. This is who I am.” Many of us wish we were younger, more handsome more beautiful. But we’re people, and are who we are. What you did was not just an insult to Arnold’s personal donated time, but to the entire community at large - esp those who have submitted pics of their actual selves. If it was an error PlainJain, then I sincerely ask you: Where is the pic that is actually you? Your submission invited a stranger to this board to join solely for the purpose of calling out the pic, to announce that it was copyrighted and illegal. And to insist it must be removed immediately. > [@PlainJain](#): > > WTF? In point of fact, no, I don’t owe you a god damn thing. What the hell does that have to do with anything I’ve said in this thread? I explained what it had to do with the context of this thread, at least as I see it. As for what you owe me? You owe it to yourself to come clean. Or to show us who you really are - esp after the fiasco you created for Arnold Wrinkleried - one of the volunteers you seem so keen to defend here in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-miller-oversteps-his-bounds/590068.md?page=6)