# In Which Pagan Witnessing Is Requested.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387 "2003-02-16T04:51:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/41 "2003-02-17T15:18:02Z")
Ouch, \*\*Polycarp. \*\* Hot coffee hurts when it shoots out of your nostrils. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/42 "2003-02-17T16:53:55Z")
OK, ā€œunaffiliatedā€ here with a question-- a couple of people have mentioned ā€œthe horned godā€ (unsure of use of capitals in polytheism, sorry)-- is this understood to be the god that the Christians call the devil, or am I inferring too much here. Fascinating thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/43 "2003-02-17T16:59:34Z")
The Horned God sometimes refers to Cernunnos, a Celtic nature God; sometimes it refers to Pan, a Greek nature God. Cernunnos is usually depicted with antlers, whereas Pan has goatā€™s horns. There is, AFAIK, an indirect connection to the devil: early Christians often suggested that nature deities were manifestations of the devil. However, they have a totally different history. When I was in high school, I was publicly pagan (and started a pagan study group as an extracurricular activity). Somebody mustā€™ve asked me once if I worshipped the Devil, and I snarkily said, ā€œNo, but I do worship a horned god.ā€ Word got around, and overall it probably protected me from some bullying. Not everyone was willing to make the fine distinction required between one horned supernatural being and another. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/44 "2003-02-17T17:06:48Z")
The Christian church basically demonized Pan, the horned god of the woodland. He is wild, free, sexual, at home with his animal nature. And we canā€™t have that, can we šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/45 "2003-02-17T17:19:59Z")
To be fair, **Witch** , Pan has never been a particularly benevolent God. Wild+free+sexual meant, for Pan, lots of raping. And Pan pipes werenā€™t famous for their soothing tunes when their namesake played them: the word is ā€œpanicā€ for a reason. That aside, Iā€™ve always had a soft spot for trickster deities. Pan and Hermes were the best tricksters in the Greek pantheon, but the best trickster God I know of is El-Ahrairah. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/46 "2003-02-17T17:44:21Z")
Well, thatā€™s another point about pagan gods in general. They personify the ā€œgoodā€ and the ā€œbad.ā€ Athena is a goddess of wisdom, but she is also a goddess of war. You cannot have birth without death. Nothing in the universe is either all black or all white, but a mixture of both. Rain nourishes the earth, but it can also cause devastation. As it is with all things on earth, including each of us, and our gods. Itā€™s up to us to bring out the best in ourselves, and to call upon the better aspects in our god-selves. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/47 "2003-02-17T18:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*I need to note that **Sister Coyote** once made a masterful post in a Christianity thread on the Seven Deadly Sins (explained clearly, from her IIRC Lutheran upbringing), which led me to, after a bit of negotiation between us as to the wording, christen her as ā€œthe worldā€™s leading agnostic neo-shamanic neo-pagan moral theologian!ā€ ;j \*\* Someone say my name? šŸ˜‰ Presbyterian upbringing. But thatā€™s an easy mistake to make - Iā€™m attending a Lutheran college right now. And I actually came up with that recently, though Iā€™m sure my upbringing helped. I still use the agnostic neo-shamanic neo-pagan moral thealogian line, though. Anywayā€¦ > [@](#): > > **But I was wondering if sincere pagans, Wiccans, and the like, could speak frankly about the intellectual and emotional investment they have in the God/Goddess concept.** Well, I donā€™t have much investment in the God/Goddess concept; I am of the opinion that there is one ā€œDivine;ā€ and that we mortal creatures cannot wrap our brains around its existance so we divide it into Entities (Divinities) we can ā€œunderstand.ā€ > [@](#): > > \*\*Does this sort of personal-relationship sense come through for you pagans in your beliefs? \*\* Sometimes. Itā€™s complicated. > [@](#): > > \*\*do you see Them as ā€œreal peopleā€? \*\* Not exactly. > [@](#): > > **Are they symbolic abstractions invested with mythopoeic meaning to you?** Sometimes. > [@](#): > > \*\* Does the concept Iā€™ve run into that theyā€™re two different manifestations of an underlying reality have any validity for you?\*\* Very much so. See above. The specific interaction I use to explain my relationship with Coyote was definitely ā€œrealā€ - and yet it took place entirely within my ā€œmental spaceā€ during a guided meditation. Other things that struck me about the encounter were the Femaleness of Coyote in that experience - and there were other aspects of the Divine in the same experience. The biggest problem for me with answering your questions, **Poly** , is that I havenā€™t considered a lot of this in depth yet. Strange as this statement is, Iā€™m reassured knowing FemCoyote is out there, Wolf and Antelope with Her, and other than occasionally calling on Her or Her Compatirots for strength (as at the dentistā€™s office) I donā€™t think on it too much. Largely because it _is_ complicated, and tangled, and Iā€™m afraid that if I tried to straighten it out Iā€™d only make it worseā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/48 "2003-02-17T19:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Witch \* > \*\*Well, thatā€™s another point about pagan gods in general. They personify the ā€œgoodā€ and the ā€œbad.ā€ \*\* I see it slightly differently: Pagan Gods are often neither good nor bad (which may be why you put the terms in quotes). Theyā€™re forces of nature, and when Pan rapes a peasant girl, heā€™s being no more evil than a river that drowns a prince. Pan is the lust that can be life-affirming or violently destructive. This is an important difference from a Zoroastrian/JudeoChristian model of positive and negative deities. Ormazd is not, as far as I know, ever a harmful God in the way that Aphrodite or Elegba or or Inanna or Odin or Uranus (and sometimes Yemaya) were. And while YHWH has killed His fair share of humans in His time, He always did so out of righteousness (if you accept the religion, that is). That difference ā€“ dualistic deities are usually Good, whereas polytheistic deities are more like Forces of Nature ā€“ leads to a very different relationship between Person and God, I think. You might call on Coyote for some tricksiness when you need it, but itā€™s a baaaaad idea to turn to him for advice; and praying to Odin for compassion and patience with your inlaws ainā€™t gonna get you very far. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/49 "2003-02-17T20:33:33Z")
Exactly **Daniel**. Thats why I used the quotes. I see it the same way you do. You just put it much more eloquently than I. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/50 "2003-02-17T22:10:00Z")
On an aside, a commentator on NPR just said that Michael Jackson was a trickster figure for our times. Remember what I said earlier about having a soft spot for trickster figures? Can yā€™all, um, can yā€™all forget that I ever said that and pretend it didnā€™t happen? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/51 "2003-02-18T01:08:59Z")
Trickster what? Did I miss something? šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/52 "2003-02-18T01:09:35Z")
\*\*Polycarp quoted: ā€œMake Love Not Smashā€ ā€“ Angus Og OG SMOOCH!!\*\* ---
**Author:** ![agentfroot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@agentfroot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agentfroot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/53 "2003-02-18T03:47:39Z")
Prays da Lawd! And da Lady! Git dahn on ya NEES and tank Gawd! And da Gawdiss! Nah Cernunnos wants ya to send us a tahsand dallahsā€¦ _ahem_ Sorry, Iā€™m in a particularly silly mood right now. Well, I personally believe that the ultimate superpower divine being thingy (just say ā€œGodā€ already!) is genderless, but then thereā€™s the male side and the female side. There should be a third gender force for androgyny and gender-bending and related matters (We worship thee, O Hedwig with the Angry Inch!). Anyway, hereā€™s what they mean to me: I donā€™t know much about the Lord. I guess thatā€™s because I feel weird around most males and relate more to females, so the Lord is kind of like this nice father figure who watches over me and makes sure everything is hunky-dory. I have a better relationship with the Lady. I call on her to help me out with everything, whether Iā€™m waking up at 5 am to start a 7 page paper due at 11 (it happens all the time) or sending healing energy to a friend. I rely on her the most (I feel bad for leaving the Lord out, but he understands, and heā€™s helping me feel more comfortable around males). For the most part, theyā€™re good. Theyā€™re nice to me and take care of me, but, like everyone else, they can get pretty nasty. They decided it would be a good idea to give me appendicitis once, and that wasnā€™t fun. But they helped me get through it. So thatā€™s what I have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Mothchunks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mothchunks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mothchunks)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/54 "2003-02-18T14:05:15Z")
Very interesting post on the difference between Vaishnava Hinduism and Shaktism. If you have any relavent links Iā€™d love to see them. OMG Michael Jackson is not a trickster figure. If I had to pin him as any kind of archetype it would be The Picture of Dorian Grey. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/55 "2003-02-18T16:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mothchunks \* > \*\*OMG Michael Jackson is not a trickster figure. If I had to pin him as any kind of archetype it would be The Picture of Dorian Grey. \*\* šŸ˜ƒ The commentator did have a point: Jackson is an absurd, out-of-control, clownish figure who keeps managing to stumble his way into success. OTOH, tricksters tend to play actual tricks, and the only trick I can think of Michael Jackson pulling off successfully is getting boys to sleep in his bed. This doesnā€™t compare to Coyote getting girls to nibble on his penis by making them think itā€™s a strawberry, but maybe itā€™s in the same vein. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![80sHairMetalMaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/8/ed655f/32.png) [@80sHairMetalMaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/80sHairMetalMaven)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/56 "2003-02-18T21:40:19Z")
Danielā€“where (outside of the Watership Down books/fanfics/etc)is El-Hrairah mentioned?šŸ™‚ IDBB(proud to be one of the few that can pronounce El-Hrairah correctly) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387/57 "2003-02-21T04:04:55Z")
I looked up _og_ in an Irish dictionary. Itā€™s a real word, all right. _Og_ means ā€˜youngā€™ in Irish. **Mothchunks** , thanks for the positive response. Here is an essay that might provide the further information you asked for. It was written by a Shakta friend of mine who is totally into it and really knows what heā€™s talking about. He helps to manage the Shakti Sadhana Yahoo! Group and made this website as a result of the deep discussions there. He explains the issues really well. [What Is Shaktism](http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Articles/shaktism.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-pagan-witnessing-is-requested/155387.md?page=2)