# In WW2, how did infantry call in artillery without getting hit themselves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737 "2012-02-04T06:32:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/41 "2012-02-05T04:28:22Z")
Except that it doesnt have to be defensive and not to mention you dismissed the whole senario as ”hollywood” ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/42 "2012-02-05T04:30:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One could say that those were coordinates of a sort, just with the preplanned target at the origin of the coordinate system. Yes but wanted to make it clear that it wasn’t as if there was a grid system of lefts and rights, and numbers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/43 "2012-02-05T06:23:56Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > I understand they had good maps. And I understand the concept of calling in artillery to hit a square on that grid. What I dont understand is how the small infantry company knew exactly where _they_ were on that map. I understand they would have a _general_ idea. But if they think they are at position A when in reality they are 300 meters forward of that, they are gonna get hit. > > I was dubious because no matter how good your maps are, a bunch of guys running around the countryside aren’t gonna know precisely where they are. Not without GPS. Gosh, no, that’s just not correct at all. When I was in the Forces we were asked a zillion times to orient ourselves with just a compass and a map. This wasn’t advanced infantry training, it’s basic military training, and even the biggest dumbass could learn it. It’s not hard at all once you get the hang of it, as long as you have a good map. I dunno why you think it would be difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/44 "2012-02-05T08:41:28Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Except that it doesnt have to be defensive and not to mention you dismissed the whole senario as ”hollywood” So in other words generally the only time there wouldn’t be spotting rounds in an unplanned fire mission in WW2 was into a pre-plotted defensive zone; which is what we both just said. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/45 "2012-02-05T15:00:27Z")
Stupid question: How long did it take for artillery to a) set/reset for preplanned zones of fire, and b) for entirely new, ad-hoc coordinates? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/46 "2012-02-05T16:11:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Gosh, no, that’s just not correct at all. > > When I was in the Forces we were asked a zillion times to orient ourselves with just a compass and a map. This wasn’t advanced infantry training, it’s basic military training, and even the biggest dumbass could learn it. It’s not hard at all once you get the hang of it, as long as you have a good map. I dunno why you think it would be difficult. Hell, even as Boy Scouts, if we knew where we were at all, we knew _exactly_ where we were- way closer than 300 meters, at any rate. With a good compass, and an accurate map, you can pretty much figure out where you are with great accuracy and without much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Dufus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/47 "2012-02-05T16:48:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Hell, even as Boy Scouts, if we knew where we were at all, we knew _exactly_ where we were- way closer than 300 meters, at any rate. > > With a good compass, and an accurate map, you can pretty much figure out where you are with great accuracy and without much trouble. I always heard the greatest danger to a rifle platoon was a lieutenant with a map and compass. There is also a lot of “we weren’t lost, just temporarily misoriented”! Don’t know how those old sayings ever got started. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/48 "2012-02-05T16:52:51Z")
> [@Dufus](#): > > Don’t know how those old sayings ever got started. Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![Dufus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/49 "2012-02-05T17:16:39Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Hollywood. You may be right! Didn’t Jamie Harris say something disparaging about Lt’s with map and compass in “The Lost Battalion”? Veering off topic slightly, Wikipedia’s entry about [friendly fire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire) says “An estimated **75,000** French soldiers were casualties of **friendly artillery** in the four years of World War I”. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/50 "2012-02-05T18:13:52Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > What I dont understand is how the small infantry company knew exactly where _they_ were on that map. > … no matter how good your maps are, a bunch of guys running around the countryside aren’t gonna know precisely where they are. Apparently, you aren’t familiar with large-scale topographical maps. You might be thinking of a map as the folded paper thing you buy at a gas station and keep in your car- with just the roads marked on them, and little dots for small towns. But we are talking here about a totally different kind of map, called a topographical map.. The kind that hikers, boy scouts, and, yes, soldiers use. Check out this site: [http://www.digital-topo-maps.com/topo-maps.php](http://www.digital-topo-maps.com/topo-maps.php) Zoom in on where you live, click on the link “My Topo”— and look at the details. If you’ve never seen a topo map before, it may surprise you. Every single building is shown, every hill, every stream. .It is easy to know where you are just by reading the map and matching the details you see on the paper to what you see in the field. If you don’t know how to read contour lines (the squiggly lines that represent the hills and valleys)–it’s easy to learn: the closer the lines are to each other, the steeper the terrain is. It only takes a day or so of practice to learn how to identify your location on the map to within a hundred yards or so. > [@](#): > > Not without GPS. If you’re young enough that you can’t remember when there was no internet and no GPS, it may surprise you to know that paper maps work just fine. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/51 "2012-02-05T18:59:43Z")
Famous Bill Maudlin cartoon: [http://www.peteyandpetunia.com/GIJoe/pages/\_maul05.htm](http://www.peteyandpetunia.com/GIJoe/pages/_maul05.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/52 "2012-02-05T19:13:13Z")
You don’t just ‘call in the artillery’ unless it is bore-sighted (already set up to hit a certain position which was done when you were set up to defend) What you did was call in spotter rounds. People would watch these rounds and provide feedback and when they hit the right spot then the artillery would ‘fire for effect’ which is the full strike. To get them in the right position initially to see the spotter rounds, they used grids/maps. My brother-in-law was a forward observer (directed spotter rounds) in Vietnam ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/53 "2012-02-05T19:14:17Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > In a nutshell: it’s Hollywood. In an on-the-fly artillery mission a spotting round would be fired on a map coordinate radioed by the forward observer who would then provide adjustments based on where the spotting round fell and call for a fire for effect. Generally the only time a barrage would be fired without having a spotting round or rounds to adjust on would be onto a pre-plotted fire zone in front of defensive positions. nm my last post 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/54 "2012-02-05T19:15:16Z")
They probubly just sent a text. ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/55 "2012-02-05T20:37:09Z")
Just spent the past month at Army Reconnaissance Course, and I assure you those Soldiers knew where they were to within a few meters. I had a GPS strapped to my wrist, and I rarely used it because of the accuracy of the topo maps. And yes you can always call for fire without a spotting round. Adjust fire is too slow to be effective in most circumstances. It is useful for hitting fixed positions, but if it can move it’s not going to stay around for the full barrage. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/56 "2012-02-05T21:05:13Z")
A tangent: see Joe Haldeman’s short story “Counterpoint” (first published in a collection of his stories, _Infinite Dreams_) for some insights into artillery spotting in the Vietnam War era. Haldeman served as a combat engineer in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/57 "2012-02-05T23:05:58Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > Krauts in the Open Band name! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737/58 "2012-02-06T05:43:56Z")
My understanding is that the reason American artillery was so feared in WWII was not particularly because of superior guns or even numbers of guns (although the GIs usually had plenty of guns), but because of the organization and philosophy of the US arty units. Unlike most other combatant armies, American artillery units were trained to, _and permitted to_, coordinate with almost any friendly units for fire missions. So instead of 69th divisional artillery only serving the 69th division headquarters, or even any subunits of the division, its fire could be called down by almost _any_ American units in range. This greatly multiplied the number of eyes finding targets – the enemy kept getting spotted – and the number of times fire missions could be called in. Coupled with the superabundance of ammunition the Americans typically had, US units dumped a lot more shells quite liberally on a lot more targets a lot more often and with less waiting for orders from higher up. This caused Germans to believe the Americans had vastly more artillery than was the case. It wasn’t so much many more guns though, just that the way they were used led to a lot more steel on target than the Germans expected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-ww2-how-did-infantry-call-in-artillery-without-getting-hit-themselves/611737.md?page=2)