# In your ideal electorate, what % of the voters would be conservatives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 25, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689 "2024-09-25T01:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/41 "2024-09-27T14:25:02Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > I can only assume this means in the US context _only_. In a global context, the US Overton Window is so far to the right it’s humping the International Date Line I can only assume that by “Global” you mean “The Western, Democratic World”. In that context, yes, the US is conservative. But in a GLOBAL context, that includes Russia, China, the Middle East, and Africa? The US is a liberal paradise compared to many of the world’s countries. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/42 "2024-09-27T16:31:24Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There is, at least theoretically, a conservatism that wants to conserve things. And not necessarily negative things. They’re called “liberals”, and sneered at by conservatives for wanting to conserve and protect. There’s a reason the phrase “bleeding heart liberals” exists; the essence of conservatism is _malice._ The cruelty _is_ the point. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/43 "2024-09-27T16:32:26Z")
Well I sure am glad I spent all that time typing my long post. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/44 "2024-09-27T16:36:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They’re called “liberals”, and sneered at by conservatives for wanting to conserve and protect. > > There’s a reason the phrase “bleeding heart liberals” exists; the essence of conservatism is _malice._ The cruelty _is_ the point. Are you going to provide _any_ evidence for _any_ of these claims? > [@Cervaise](#): > > Well I sure am glad I spent all that time typing my long post I appreciated it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/45 "2024-09-27T16:45:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are you going to provide _any_ evidence for _any_ of these claims? It’s called “the world”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/46 "2024-09-27T16:48:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Are you going to provide _any_ evidence for _any_ of these claims? > > It’s called “the world” That’s not how citing evidence works. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/47 "2024-09-27T17:53:19Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Well I sure am glad I spent all that time typing my long post. Me too; since although I was being replied to, most of what I said doesn’t seem to have been noticed, and most of the reply doesn’t seem applicable to the bit that was quoted. @Der_Trihs: if you’re going to define “conservatism” as “malice”, then you’re not talking about what I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/48 "2024-09-27T18:10:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Cervaise](#): > > > > Well I sure am glad I spent all that time typing my long post > > I appreciated it. As did I. And so did at least, what, 2/3’s of the posters in the thread that asked for, or used their own valid definitions of conservative, or drew a distinction between MAGA and conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2024, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/49 "2024-09-29T11:11:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s called “the world”. Well the unredeemed American World anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/50 "2024-09-30T00:08:39Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Marijuana legalization is a good example. With other countries in Europe making progress on this, the debate naturally came here. The left pointed to places where it’s been proven that relaxation of the laws hasn’t led to social collapse and said “let’s do that, right now.” The right accepted those examples, and accepted the overall calculus that cannabis prohibition is a financial and social failure, but they pumped the brakes and said “_let’s do it right._” We’re currently in a strange gray area where personal use is legal but there’s not yet an authorized sales-and-distribution channel by which cannabis can be easily acquired, but it’s coming. Slower than I’d like, maybe, but the right isn’t blocking it, just slowing it down, thinking it through point by point. > > That is a _healthy_ conservatism. It does exist and it can work. It’s not _common,_ I grant you, and certainly in the US it has mutated into a violent, reactionary radicalism. Thatcher’s Britain was far to the left of Carter’s America. If I lived in Europe, Japan, or other OECD country outside of the US, I could easily see myself voting for a center-right (or center-left) party. Nixon had his personality defects, but he did have a streak of, “Doing things right”. But that branch of US public discussion was taken over by center-left Clintonistas, and the national GOP never tried to take it back. Today the writers Matt Yglassias, Noah Smith, and Kevin Drum are all of the “Let’s do it right” variety and they all are center left. But I can imagine them being center-right in an OECD-outside-of-the-US context. I conclude that conservatives are superfluous in America. They honestly have little to add. They certainly don’t deserve any points for intellectual diversity given their predictablility and dishonesty in presentation. There is a highly defensible case for going slow (not always and not dispositive). But that case can be made by European conservatives or American liberals. Or by the conservative wing of the Japanese LDP. “Little to add”, does not mean, “Nothing to add” of course. Rejecting arguments automatically just because someone is a non-professional conservative is inappropriate, especially in non-political contexts. I’m discussing intellectual movements and not individuals or specific arguments. Still, [the most insightful conservatives of the past](https://jabberwocking.com/is-anyone-moving-right-these-days/) have trended left since 2016, not coincidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/51 "2024-09-30T05:31:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There is a highly defensible case for going slow (not always and not dispositive). But that case can be made by European conservatives or American liberals. Please note that the post you’re responding to was made in the context of an assertion that conservatism is always and invariably malicious, hateful, and destructive, without exception, and its points should be read primarily as a response to that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/52 "2024-09-30T06:10:39Z")
We’re teetering on the brink of arguing about definitions. You made a good post, and I was agreeing that European conservatism is different. My way of conceptualizing it is that self-identified American conservatives are reactionaries, not so much because they want to turn back the clock - that gives them too much credit - but because their views are formed in reaction to liberalism. Any time you talk about large groups, you’re discussing what is in essence a coalition, a group with varying psychologies, demographics, etc. Der\_Trihs simplifies this and in doing so ignores American conservatives who don’t get a frisson from displays of dominance. Some may be in businesses that feel burdened by regulation or, less-emphasized but possibly more important, liberal brickbats disseminated by the press. Everyone is a hero in their own mind after all, especially those with American comic book sensibilities. But what Der\_Trihs mostly ignores is tribalism and the cowardice of those are only somewhat stimulated by cruelty, have some sense, but still have a generally favorable view of Trump. Trump’s approval rating during his time in office hovered around 39% and I say 10 or 15 points of that are composed of people who really should have known better. Fox New disinfo explains a lot, but conservative cowardice is a necessary component. Der\_Trihs goes far too easy on American conservatives: I mean evil cloaked villains are kind of cool, right? ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/53 "2024-09-30T14:48:15Z")
Zero. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/54 "2024-09-30T15:14:37Z")
100%. That way ‘conservativism’ isn’t a thing anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/55 "2024-09-30T18:19:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …but through people coming to their goddamn senses. Yes, this. And that implies less suspension of judgment in pursuit of news entertainment. Conservatives here and at other places used to downplay Republican antics by saying that, “Politics isn’t beanbag”. Never Trumper Tom Nichols explained the thinking: > I [once wrote](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/02/2020-progressive-democrats-need-truce-moderates-beat-trump-column/2783690001/) that after Trump’s election I could never be as partisan as I once was. I was sometimes radicalized by some of the positions of the left, adopting the mirror image of their extremism as a way of staking out my own turf. In so doing I probably pushed others to the left, in the stupid synergy of tribalism that is now out of control. There was an unseriousness to this kind of dueling-with-hand-grenades, and I was part of it. > Back then, this kind of partisanship didn’t seem like a problem: In the Before Times, we still argued over _politics_ instead of whether communist Muslims had taken over our Venezuelan voting machines with help from the Italian space program. I felt like it was safe to throw elbows and do some partisan high-sticking; I believed that we were all in a giant bouncy house called the Constitution, a place where we might bump skulls or sprain an ankle now and then but where there were no sharp edges and there were only soft landings. > I don’t believe that anymore. So yeah, I agree with TriPolar: let’s go for 100%! Just as long people come to their goddamn senses. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/56 "2024-10-02T10:04:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If you could have it any way you wanted, what would the mix look like? Around 100% social democrats, with 0% conservatives and 0% liberals. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/57 "2024-10-02T10:27:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Right now, America’s electorate could be described as slightly left-leaning overall - maybe something like 55% liberal and 45% conservative. If you could have it any way you wanted, what would the mix look like? If we get rid of distortions of public will such as the electoral college, gerrymandering, and the non-proportional Senate, then we wouldn’t need a magic slider. Elections would accurately reflect the will of the people, which shouldn’t be overridden. If we further put constraints on the abuse of the corporated-puppeteered broadcast media and network media, this would solve the magic problem of the slider itself. We wouldn’t have CNN sane-washing Trump’s 20-million deportation Final Solution as if it’s just an alternative viewpoint. People would look into the howling void of hate and avarice that is conservatism, and say “no thanks”. Without media manipulation, conservatism wouldn’t be more than 25% of Americans at most. The slider is not magic, it’s billionaires putting their thumb on the scales via the media organs they own. What we need to do is un-slide that particular slider and things will return to their natural ideal. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/58 "2024-10-02T10:40:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But the conservative impulse – to not jump immediately into everything that’s new – applies to all sorts of areas. We’d have more walkable towns and cities doing a lot less damage to both environment and individual lives if we hadn’t leapt into engineering everything for rapid automobile travel, for instance; and we’re now spending time, money, and energy trying to undo some of the damage that was done, and will never be able to undo some parts of that damage. I would point out that conservatives are the one who did all this damage in the name of conserving profit. Car dealerships are one of the most reliable planks of “conservative” supporters. The Rail Act of 1970 that effectively killed passenger rail was signed into law by Richard Nixon, all efforts to revive or foster a meaningful passenger rail system are being killed by conservatives. They want to conserve the status quo of 1970 forever, when in fact the 1960 passenger situation was superior. In reality there’s no form of “good conservative” that merely wants to preserve good things. We have a moneyed and racial elite who want to conserve their own hereditary advantages, while selling it to the little guy as “incandescent light bulbs were perfectly fine, we shouldn’t have gotten rid of them”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/59 "2024-10-02T22:55:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Around 100% social democrats, with 0% conservatives and 0% liberals. FTR, I consider myself a social democrat and a liberal. That’s easy to do in a conservative country like the US. In most other (all other?) democratic nations, I’d have to make a choice. I’m probably not a socialist, though I could see myself voting for any of the 3 big parties in the UK, depending upon who was running. IOW I’m a European centrist which situates me on the left half of the Democratic party. In the beginning of this century I placed myself on the far left fringe of the Democratic Party, but Bernie, AOC, the squad, and passage of the Affordable Care Act successfully shifted the Overton window, for which I am grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689/60 "2024-10-02T23:17:40Z")
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be the downsides of a society where 100% of people are social democrats? Or is there no downside at all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-ideal-electorate-what-of-the-voters-would-be-conservatives/1007689.md?page=4)