# In your opinion, why hasn't libertarianism come to pass? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773 "2012-06-11T01:13:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/201 "2012-07-10T02:52:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > There seem to be two types of Libertarian. One supports personal freedoms (recreational drugs, gay marriages, etc.); the other is all about the advantages of Adam Smith’s Dog-eat-dog philosophy, and that the government should stop trying to help the Underdog. Re-reading this, I’ll guess that libertarians will accuse me of oversimplifying. Or rather of _under_-simplifying since the libertarian philosophy can be synopsized in four words: “Freedom Freedom Freedom Freedom.” But rationalists have difficulty comprehending this: [ul][li] You have the freedom to open a restaurant selling unhealthy food …[/li][li] But I lack the freedom to enter an unfamiliar restaurant and expect not to get botulism.[/li][li] You have the freedom to shoot me or call the police if I trespass on your land …[/li][li] But I lack the freedom to feed or educate my children if I’m indigent.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/202 "2012-07-10T12:46:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Re-reading this, I’ll guess that libertarians will accuse me of oversimplifying. Or rather of _under_-simplifying since the libertarian philosophy can be synopsized in four words: “Freedom Freedom Freedom Freedom.” > > But rationalists have difficulty comprehending this: > [ul] > [li]You have the freedom to open a restaurant selling unhealthy food …[/li][li]But I lack the freedom to enter an unfamiliar restaurant and expect not to get botulism.[/li][li]You have the freedom to shoot me or call the police if I trespass on your land …[/li][li]But I lack the freedom to feed or educate my children if I’m indigent.[/li][/ul] I don’t understand how bullets two and four can strictly be called “freedoms”. You’re equating lacking the capacity to do something you want with not having the freedom to do it. It seems to me that this is exemplary of the modern habit of regarding our (manmade) environment as 100% responsible for everything. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/203 "2012-07-10T13:40:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The ‘Special Elite’ only applies at the beginning of a libertarian society and this is hardly unique to libertarians. It is decided by a small group and put into a Constitution and Bill of Rights and certainly can’t be modified easily after that. Sound familiar? It should. It is the way the U.S. was founded as well as most other 1st World nations. You don’t allow everyone to vote on a constitution or Bill of Rights or you won’t ever have a real one. But as you point out, we have a constitution like you describe. So why don’t libertarians just enact the property rights laws they think are good? The answer is obvious: most people don’t agree with libertarian ideas about private property, just like most people don’t agree with the communists on their ideas about private property. Neither libertarians or communists will ever convince a majority to vote in favor of their ideas. But libertarians and communists can’t accept that this may be an indication that their ideas are flawed. They see this as an indication that democracy is flawed. If the majority doesn’t agree with their ideas, then there should be a change in how the political system works. Their ideas should be enacted into law even if the majority disagrees with them - and these laws should be not only inalienable but unamendable. It’s all for the good of the majority even if the majority doesn’t realize it. This mindset, to me, epitomizes how a Special Elite would work. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/204 "2012-07-10T13:52:16Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You’re equating lacking the capacity to do something you want with not having the freedom to do it. It is. Freedom is about more than the permission to do things; it’s about being able to do them. This an important point in discussions about libertarianism, because it relates to their denial of economic power & coercion; the inability to afford things is just as coercive as any law. If I can’t afford a medicine it’s just as much out of my reach as if the government bans it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/205 "2012-07-10T15:51:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is. Freedom is about more than the permission to do things; it’s about being able to do them. This an important point in discussions about libertarianism, because it relates to their denial of economic power & coercion; the inability to afford things is just as coercive as any law. If I can’t afford a medicine it’s just as much out of my reach as if the government bans it. OK, but then whose fault is that? Society’s as a whole because it has somehow conspired to deny you, or refused to give you, the means you desire? It’s similar to how things that people need to live have become called “rights”- you have a “right” to nutrition, to health care, to education, etc., etc. Now admittedly this view makes sense IF it’s taken as axiomatic that society as a whole is in control of everything. If we have reached the point in civilization where people are now as totally dependent on their economic and political environment as cavemen were on their natural environment. Until recently people took the position that shit happens; you do the best you can and live with the result- what the Declaration of Independence called “the Pursuit of Happiness”. But so few people today have any sort of self-sufficiency that we’re starting to look more and more like medieval serfs using a combination of begging and complaining to get their lord to treat them better. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/206 "2012-07-10T21:26:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > OK, but then whose fault is that? Society’s as a whole because it has somehow conspired to deny you, or refused to give you, the means you desire? Quite often, yes. Economic coercion is a widespread feature of society. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Now admittedly this view makes sense IF it’s taken as axiomatic that society as a whole is in control of everything. If we have reached the point in civilization where people are now as totally dependent on their economic and political environment as cavemen were on their natural environment. Until recently people took the position that shit happens; you do the best you can and live with the result- what the Declaration of Independence called “the Pursuit of Happiness”. But so few people today have any sort of self-sufficiency that we’re starting to look more and more like medieval serfs using a combination of begging and complaining to get their lord to treat them better. Self sufficiency is a myth; even some hermit living in the woods is almost certainly going to be using tools created by a larger society. We are taught to value self sufficiency because people who buy it actually will just sit off in a corner and suffer rather than ask for help, and because it makes you easy prey for the powerful; an individual alone is weak and helpless. And there’s nothing noble about self sufficiency; society and civilization exist because they are better than trying to survive without others. Not because they are useless parasites that get in the way of the Randian superhuman, the godlike libertarian who could do everything a nation of millions can do all by himself if the Evil Government would just get out of his way. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/207 "2012-07-11T00:44:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You do realize that you are “defending” libertarians by insisting that I should call them morons instead of ill intentioned? “They don’t mean badly! They’re just clueless!” More idiotic reasoning. If you think a policy will have a certain result, why don’t you argue against that policy by making an arument that it will have that result? Instead, you never do that, you only impugn the motives of the people advocating for that policy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/208 "2012-07-11T01:07:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > If you think a policy will have a certain result, why don’t you argue against that policy by making an arument that it will have that result? Instead, you never do that, you only impugn the motives of the people advocating for that policy. Nonsense; I explain my reasoning quite often. And you are doing what you accuse me of; slandering me without trying to actually defend your position. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/209 "2012-07-11T02:26:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense; I explain my reasoning quite often. And you are doing what you accuse me of; slandering me without trying to actually defend your position. Nope. You make bald-faced assertions about the motives of libertarians. You never make an actual policy argument about why your favored policies would have better results than libertarian policies. I make such policy arguments all the time (and get roundly shouted down by others based on their perceptions of fairness and other such nonsense). ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/210 "2012-07-11T07:50:07Z")
The rich and powerful will always have undue influence, they do right now! Hardly something unique to a hypothetical lib society. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/211 "2012-07-12T05:13:29Z")
**grude** : very true… What many of us are uncomfortable with is the notion of enshrining that into the foundational law of a nation. Instead, most of the history of the western democracies has been the reduction of the correlation between wealth and privilege. The current health care debate is an example of this. No one – well, other than a handful of really extremist levelers – want to remove all the benefits of wealth. Most of us see the advantage of incentives. If people have a decent chance at improving their lot in life, then they’re more likely to participate in the economy, as workers, or as investors. What most libertarians fail to offer is a mechanism by which, for example, investments are protected against fraud. Most libertarians reject government regulation, but that simply opens the way for Ponzi schemes and other fraud, and that, in turn, deters anyone with any sense from investing at all. And that cripples the free market. Some degree of regulation is absolutely necessary, and, in fact, many libertarians agree with this. But many don’t. Too many different varieties of libertarians! ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/212 "2012-07-12T05:32:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What most libertarians fail to offer is a mechanism by which, for example, investments are protected against fraud. Most libertarians reject government regulation, but that simply opens the way for Ponzi schemes and other fraud, and that, in turn, deters anyone with any sense from investing at all. And that cripples the free market. Some degree of regulation is absolutely necessary, and, in fact, many libertarians agree with this. But many don’t. > > Too many different varieties of libertarians! I think that is the crux of the issue, there are so many varied groups carrying the libertarian banner now that it is hard to tell what is up. I will say though libertarians are not in any way in support of fraud, or at least not the party I learned about. Now someone will find a cite that shows the libertarian party is in favor of fraud;) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/213 "2012-07-12T08:15:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > [ul][li] You have the freedom to open a restaurant selling unhealthy food …[/li][li] But I lack the freedom to enter an unfamiliar restaurant and expect not to get botulism.[/li][li] You have the freedom to shoot me or call the police if I trespass on your land …[/li][li] But I lack the freedom to feed or educate my children if I’m indigent.[/li][/ul] > > I don’t understand how bullets two and four can strictly be called “freedoms”. You’re equating lacking the capacity to do something you want with not having the freedom to do it. It seems to me that this is exemplary of the modern habit of regarding our (manmade) environment as 100% responsible for everything. Let’s focus on bullets 3 and 4 and suppose a man with hungry children has been injured and is no longer able to earn money to feed them. (Perhaps he stupidly thought his ex-employer had paid into a disability fund, but that employer exercised his Freedom to defraud.) He spots some apples on your land. You have the freedom to shoot him if he trespasses, but he lacks the freedom to attempt to feed his children in the obvious way. If that’s the Utopia you envision, fine. Just admit that your mantra is “Property rights … Property rights … Property Rights,” not “Freedom … Freedom … Freedom.” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/214 "2012-07-12T08:42:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Let’s focus on bullets 3 and 4 and suppose a man with hungry children has been injured and is no longer able to earn money to feed them. (Perhaps he stupidly thought his ex-employer had paid into a disability fund, but that employer exercised his Freedom to defraud.) He spots some apples on your land. > > You have the freedom to shoot him if he trespasses, but he lacks the freedom to attempt to feed his children in the obvious way. > > If that’s the Utopia you envision, fine. Just admit that your mantra is “Property rights … Property rights … Property Rights,” not “Freedom … Freedom … Freedom.” 1.You think the solution to the problem the man faces would be theft? Even in the currently existing world the man has no right to steal food, and would in fact be making a poor choice as in many states he can shot by the homeowner RIGHT NOW! Now his kids are hungry and without a parent. 2.You think libertarians primary motivation is shooting thieves trying to feed hungry children? Please go back to reading. 1. Fraud is not a freedom: [http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/8385-would-libertarians-prosecute-fraud-uh-yeah](http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/8385-would-libertarians-prosecute-fraud-uh-yeah) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/215 "2012-07-12T13:15:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Let’s focus on bullets 3 and 4 and suppose a man with hungry children has been injured and is no longer able to earn money to feed them. (Perhaps he stupidly thought his ex-employer had paid into a disability fund, but that employer exercised his Freedom to defraud.) He spots some apples on your land. > > You have the freedom to shoot him if he trespasses, but he lacks the freedom to attempt to feed his children in the obvious way. > > If that’s the Utopia you envision, fine. Just admit that your mantra is “Property rights … Property rights … Property Rights,” not “Freedom … Freedom … Freedom.” Libertarianism is individualist and yes, quite often unapologetically selfish (in the neutral non-pergorative sense of the word). In an ultimate moral sense I may be my brother’s keeper and all living creatures are children of God; but in brutally pragmatic real-world terms, human life is not infinitely precious. Human life is only precious if on some level or another it’s on my side: my family, my friends, my clan, my associates, my tribe, my nation. Or if nothing else, at least the assurance that some total stranger and I are both members of a civil society based on respecting others. If even that’s not the case, if someone has displayed by their behavior that they regard me as a resource to be exploited, then at best they’re a competator and at worst they’re an enemy. Now your hypothetical starts with the presumption that I do indeed have a valid claim to calling the fruit “mine”; if that’s not so, if “property is theft” as so many anarchists claim, then the hypothetical doesn’t stand. But if it is mine, then however pitiable the unlucky man and his innocent hungry children are, he’s decided in extremis to loot from me. I might decide as an act of mercy to let it go; but if there are enough hungry desperate people out there to strip my apple tree bare, then I may be sorry for them but mercy and charity can only go so far. Ayn Rand summed it up at the end of her novella _ **Anthem** _, when her protagonist says of the mass of humanity “they will have to do more than exist to earn my love”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/216 "2012-07-12T13:30:43Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Libertarianism is individualist and yes, quite often unapologetically selfish (in the neutral non-pergorative sense of the word). In an ultimate moral sense I may be my brother’s keeper and all living creatures are children of God; but in brutally pragmatic real-world terms, human life is not infinitely precious. Human life is only precious if on some level or another it’s on my side: my family, my friends, my clan, my associates, my tribe, my nation. Or if nothing else, at least the assurance that some total stranger and I are both members of a civil society based on respecting others. If even that’s not the case, if someone has displayed by their behavior that they regard me as a resource to be exploited, then at best they’re a competator and at worst they’re an enemy. > > Now your hypothetical starts with the presumption that I do indeed have a valid claim to calling the fruit “mine”; if that’s not so, if “property is theft” as so many anarchists claim, then the hypothetical doesn’t stand. But if it is mine, then however pitiable the unlucky man and his innocent hungry children are, he’s decided in extremis to loot from me. I might decide as an act of mercy to let it go; but if there are enough hungry desperate people out there to strip my apple tree bare, then I may be sorry for them but mercy and charity can only go so far. Ayn Rand summed it up at the end of her novella _ **Anthem** _, when her protagonist says of the mass of humanity “they will have to do more than exist to earn my love”. A part of the hypothetical you are leaving out is that he’s starving because the libertarian system is _letting_ him starve. Also, if you owe _him_ no consideration, why does he owe _you_ consideration? If _his_ life means nothing, then _neither does yours_ and it would be perfectly “ethical” for him to take your fruit by force; or for that matter to simply kill and eat _you_. Which is why an ethical system that holds human life to be of inherent value is good for everyone, even on a self interested level. Arguments like this one generally have the unspoken assumption that the life of the property owner is of value, but that of the poor person is worthless. They are built on the assumption that the starving man is going to be nicer than the person who is withholding food from him. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/217 "2012-07-12T13:47:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A part of the hypothetical you are leaving out is that he’s starving because the libertarian system is _letting_ him starve. The system as a whole owes him nothing, yes. If he has no one to help him and no strangers will offer him charity, then turning to theft as a last resort may be his least lousy choice but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s preying on others. > [@](#): > > Also, if you owe _him_ no consideration, why does he owe _you_ consideration? If _his_ life means nothing, then _neither does yours_ and it would be perfectly “ethical” for him to take your fruit by force; or for that matter to simply kill and eat _you_. I owe him the same consideration he owes me: that we’re to both be presumed to be good people until proven otherwise, and that neither of us are to be prey for the other. > [@](#): > > Which is why an ethical system that holds human life to be of inherent value is good for everyone, even on a self interested level. In practice most people are going to agree that some arrangement for the poor and unlucky is desirable. I don’t want to have to shoot people, I’m not so coldly inhuman as to regard all strangers as two-legged animals. But moral arguments can only be based on morality. If I’m forced to be charitable to others, it isn’t charity. > [@](#): > > Arguments like this one generally have the unspoken assumption that the life of the property owner is of value, but that of the poor person is worthless. They are built on the assumption that the starving man is going to be nicer than the person who is withholding food from him. No, our lives are of equal value. But you’re claiming that a stranger’s neediness grants him an element of moral superiority. Perhaps, but unless God is willing to rain manna from heaven, moral considerations don’t impact the cold bare physical universe. I have to decide what I’m able or willing to give. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/218 "2012-07-12T13:48:39Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I will say though libertarians are not in any way in support of fraud, or at least not the party I learned about. Now someone will find a cite that shows the libertarian party is in favor of fraud Libertarians don’t support fraud. But they do support a system that would make it much easier to commit fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/219 "2012-07-12T14:09:22Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The system as a whole owes him nothing, yes. Then he owes the system nothing. > [@Lumpy](#): > > If he has no one to help him and no strangers will offer him charity, then turning to theft as a last resort may be his least lousy choice but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s preying on others. So? Survival trumps property laws. And again; he owes nothing to a society that declares that it owes nothing to him. > [@Lumpy](#): > > I owe him the same consideration he owes me: that we’re to both be presumed to be good people until proven otherwise, and that neither of us are to be prey for the other. Except that he IS the prey. This isn’t about isn’t about no one being prey; this is about the predators demanding that the prey not fight back. > [@Lumpy](#): > > In practice most people are going to agree that some arrangement for the poor and unlucky is desirable. Because most people aren’t libertarians. Libertarians on the other hand in my opinion would on the whole cheerfully see the poor starve to death, or outright have them killed. > [@Lumpy](#): > > I don’t want to have to shoot people, I’m not so coldly inhuman as to regard all strangers as two-legged animals. But moral arguments can only be based on morality. If I’m forced to be charitable to others, it isn’t charity. And? This isn’t about charity; this is about keeping people from such a level of desperation that society collapses. > [@Lumpy](#): > > No, our lives are of equal value. But you’re claiming that a stranger’s neediness grants him an element of moral superiority. No, I’m not. I’m claiming that such a society has rejected morality and reduced itself to a Hobbesian War of All Against All. He owes nothing to you because you are the Enemy; in such a society, everyone is the Enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/220 "2012-07-12T14:21:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that he IS the prey. This isn’t about isn’t about no one being prey; this is about the predators demanding that the prey not fight back. When was he taken from? > [@](#): > > Because most people aren’t libertarians. Libertarians on the other hand in my opinion would on the whole cheerfully see the poor starve to death, or outright have them killed. Strawman. No they wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > Then he owes the system nothing. > So? Survival trumps property laws. And again; he owes nothing to a society that declares that it owes nothing to him. > And? This isn’t about charity; this is about keeping people from such a level of desperation that society collapses. > No, I’m not. I’m claiming that such a society has rejected morality and reduced itself to a Hobbesian War of All Against All. He owes nothing to you because you are the Enemy; in such a society, everyone is the Enemy. Except that libertarianism is NOT pure “I’ve got mine, f-u”, like a hillbilly farmer shooting everyone who trespasses on his land, precisely because Hobbesian savagery inevitably leads to the imposition of a State and libertarians know this. Libertarianism substitutes for the State a shared conciousness of what values are necessary to maximize freedom. This include the recognition that you don’t trample on other’s rights, which is what the fruit thief is doing. Yes, someone in extremis will say “Fuck the system” rather than starve to death, but then they’ve essentially declared war on everyone else, and are liable to be treated as such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773.md?page=12)