# In your opinion, why hasn't libertarianism come to pass? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773 "2012-06-11T01:13:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/161 "2012-07-05T16:47:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > They talk about running their lives without impinging on others as if that is anything other than fantasy. They breathlessly claims that rights are fundamental, which means they can never change even when society does. How does me being in a bisexual polygamous relationship and smoking marijuana impinge on others lives? Fundamental rights like free speech, freedom of religion, equal treatment by government, etc shouldn’t change. Most political systems and nations have guiding principles and inalienable rights, why is libertarianism being singled out? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/162 "2012-07-05T16:54:21Z")
Let’s see if I can condense my post into a few words: It’s not the guiding principles that matter: it’s the everyday implementation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/163 "2012-07-05T16:58:22Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How does me being in a bisexual polygamous relationship and smoking marijuana impinge on others lives?.. Most political systems and nations have guiding principles and inalienable rights, why is libertarianism being singled out? Asked and answered: > [@septimus](#): > > “Libertarians” like to appeal to pot smokers. That’s just a facade to attract votes. In fact, Libertarianism is all about Greed-is-God Dog-eat-Dog Capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/164 "2012-07-05T16:59:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But libertarians DO believe things like freedom of speech are fundamental, that is their whole platform. Which makes them no different than liberals or conservatives. What distinguishes them is that they seem to think it objectively obvious that _some larger set of rights_ should be fundamental and that statements of such fundamental rights are _objectively obvious_ notwithstanding the fact that there is no consensus even amongst libertarians what such fundamental rights and their interpretation should be. What they fail to acknowledge is that libertarianism is not different from any kind of -ism in that it makes certain choices about policy and that such choices are not objective, but rather based on individual values, just like liberals and conservatives, and thus that criticism of such choices does not make someone “anti-liberty” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/165 "2012-07-05T17:02:38Z")
In fact I wasn’t even aware that the libertarian party took such a hard line approach towards income taxes. Well the advice I would offer then is to abolish all victimless crimes, this would GUT support for the libertarian party and leave only the whackos and wanna be lords to be seen for what they are. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/166 "2012-07-05T17:06:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What they fail to acknowledge is that libertarianism is not different from any kind of -ism in that it makes certain choices about policy and that such choices are not objective, but rather based on individual values, just like liberals and conservatives. I’m not sure this is true, and I don’t think libertarinism is different. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/167 "2012-07-05T17:10:06Z")
My remarks may seem to have generated into the snarky   _Libertarians are “fiscal conservatives”(i.e. people who don’t like to pay taxes) who smoke pot_ but that’s because you won’t answer the question! Many political societies have been based on property rights. Often it was only property owners who could vote. Other societies are based on universal suffrage: voting powers are equal. Either model may have merit. What doesn’t make sense is to speak of a society where property rights are inviolable and society is controlled by majority rule. NETA: **grude** , your recent comments seem to indicate you’re more into personal freedom than post-rational Greed-is-God “libertarianism”. If so, we’re on the same team! I recommend you disassociate yourself from the unfortunately disappropriated label. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/168 "2012-07-06T20:03:00Z")
> [@grude](#): > > If only there was some way to craft a document with thing like enumerated rights. There is a way. It’s called majority rule. But libertarians apparently want a different way. But when we ask them what their different way is, they’re not really sure. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/169 "2012-07-06T20:09:56Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Please tell me what political system this would NOT apply to. I’ve repeatedly pointed out one way to do this: majority rule. But some libertarians disagree with majority rule. They don’t think the majority should define what basic rights an individual has. Okay, if that’s your position, take the obvious next step. If the majority doesn’t decide what basic rights are, who does decide? It’s amazing how many libertarians can’t answer this question. And if libertarians can’t figure out how libertarianism is supposed to work, why should the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/170 "2012-07-06T22:57:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How does me being in a bisexual polygamous relationship and smoking marijuana impinge on others lives? Fundamental rights like free speech, freedom of religion, equal treatment by government, etc shouldn’t change. Most political systems and nations have guiding principles and inalienable rights, why is libertarianism being singled out? For me, alarm bells went off – loudly! – when I was told that a libertarian society could ban homosexuality. Until then, I had thought that the libertarian ideal followed your logic: homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone, and thus no one should be able to ban it. That provided at least a small measure of comfort; now, with that called into question, the ideal of libertarian liberty seems dangerously undermined. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/171 "2012-07-07T04:36:56Z")
Anything can be banned under libertarianism so long as its not the government that’s doing the banning. Given that libertarianism also seeks ti reduce the scope of government, meaning that broader swathes of life will be governed by private actors, I don’t see how libertarianism can possibly result in an increase in overall freedom. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/172 "2012-07-07T07:11:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > . . . when I was told that a libertarian society could ban homosexuality. You were told wrong. A true libertarian government could never just randomly outlaw anything that isn’t a direct threat to anyone else. Plus, there are quite a lot of gay libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/173 "2012-07-07T07:18:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve repeatedly pointed out one way to do this: majority rule. > > But some libertarians disagree with majority rule. They don’t think the majority should define what basic rights an individual has. > > Okay, if that’s your position, take the obvious next step. If the majority doesn’t decide what basic rights are, who does decide? > > It’s amazing how many libertarians can’t answer this question. And if libertarians can’t figure out how libertarianism is supposed to work, why should the rest of us? Majority rule has a nasty way of becoming a lynch mob. How does your society protect minorities (including individuals) from the rule of the majority? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/174 "2012-07-07T09:03:18Z")
By way of an enlightened society. It may not a nice thing to hear, but laws - even constitutions - are just words on paper. They can’t compel a majority to do anything a majority doesn’t want to do. If the majority of a country wants to be a lynch mob, then no law is going to stop them. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/175 "2012-07-07T10:19:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > By way of an enlightened society. > > It may not a nice thing to hear, but laws - even constitutions - are just words on paper. They can’t compel a majority to do anything a majority doesn’t want to do. If the majority of a country wants to be a lynch mob, then no law is going to stop them. But if the majority is truly “enlightened,” they will respect the rights of minorities and individuals. Otherwise, what does it mean to be enlightened? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/176 "2012-07-07T18:45:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Anything can be banned under libertarianism so long as its not the government that’s doing the banning. Given that libertarianism also seeks ti reduce the scope of government, meaning that broader swathes of life will be governed by private actors, I don’t see how libertarianism can possibly result in an increase in overall freedom. Sure, just like private businesses don’t have to respect my freedom of speech in the USA. Only the government is so restrained. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/177 "2012-07-07T19:22:51Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Sure, just like private businesses don’t have to respect my freedom of speech in the USA. Only the government is so restrained. In our liberal democracy, unlike under a libertarian system, there can be limits to the power of property owners and private actors to do what they want, for example the laws barring discrimination in employment and in businesses offering public accommodations. I’ll note that these are some of the laws that libertarians openly want to do away with. That, combined with the libertarian desire to reduce the scope of the public sphere and increase the scope of the private sphere (while removing all limits on private actors’ ability to oppress) makes a libertarian society less likely to be as free as what we have now. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/178 "2012-07-07T19:28:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In our liberal democracy, unlike under a libertarian system, there can be limits to the power of property owners and private actors to do what they want, for example the laws barring discrimination in employment and in businesses offering public accommodations. I’ll note that these are some of the laws that libertarians openly want to do away with. > > That, combined with the libertarian desire to reduce the scope of the public sphere and increase the scope of the private sphere (while removing all limits on private actors’ ability to oppress) makes a libertarian society less likely to be as free as what we have now. Yes libertarians are for allowing business owners and employers to discriminate by race, religion, etc And decide for instance to allow or ban smoking. I don’t think this is so clear cut a good or bad thing, as long as there is competition let the stupid owners discriminate, more business for everyone else. They would still be bound by criminal law unless a contract has otherwise been reached, so you could not be robbed and raped just because you go into Burger Hut(unless you agreed to it via contract). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/179 "2012-07-07T19:40:18Z")
And non libertarians believe we should have rights beyond not being robbed or raped or suffering a breach of contract. Indeed, there was a discussion on this board not long ago that contract law should be the sole protection against an employer who demanded sexual favors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773/180 "2012-07-08T18:10:23Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Majority rule has a nasty way of becoming a lynch mob. How does your society protect minorities (including individuals) from the rule of the majority? How does libertarianism prevent lynch mobs? At least in a majority rule society, you can count on social inertia to slow the crowd down. There’s always going to be bigots in every society. But in a democratic society, the majority restrains those bigits and prevents them from acting on their bigotry. But in libertopia the bigots are protected from interference by the majority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-your-opinion-why-hasnt-libertarianism-come-to-pass/624773.md?page=10)