In your opinion, why hasn't libertarianism come to pass?

[Der_Trihs]

@Lumpy

When was he taken from?

When someone took everything he had, and when society decided to let him die.

@Lumpy

Strawman. No they wouldn’t.

Yes they would; many admit it.

@Lumpy

Except that libertarianism is NOT pure “I’ve got mine, f-u”, like a hillbilly farmer shooting everyone who trespasses on his land, precisely because Hobbesian savagery inevitably leads to the imposition of a State and libertarians know this. Libertarianism substitutes for the State a shared conciousness of what values are necessary to maximize freedom.

In other words, it IS 'pure “I’ve got mine, f-u” '; just with a facade of self righteousness thrown over it. Platitudes are no substitute for a functioning government.

[grude]

You seem to be discussing some variant of anarchism, libs are nearly universally in favor of police and military.

[septimus]

@grude

1.You think the solution to the problem the man faces would be theft? Even in the currently existing world the man has no right to steal food, and would in fact be making a poor choice as in many states he can shot by the homeowner RIGHT NOW! Now his kids are hungry and without a parent.

2.You think libertarians primary motivation is shooting thieves trying to feed hungry children? Please go back to reading.

1. I wasn’t advocating theft. I point out that “Freedom” could be construed to allow freedom to steal. Libertarianism is all about Property Rights (as Lumpy has the grace to admit). Conflating property rights with “Freedom” is just propaganda.

2. Who mentioned “primary motivation”? Boundary cases are the path to clarity. And You tell us to read the Libertarian platform and, after we invest 20 seconds doing that, are surprised to learn Libertarians want to abolish income tax. :dubious: Now you tell us to “go back to reading.” Very amusing.

I’m still waiting for an answer about the political structure of Libertopia. … I’m not holding my breath.

[Der_Trihs]

@grude

You seem to be discussing some variant of anarchism, libs are nearly universally in favor of police and military.

Only just enough of one to keep the underclass from revolting. To quote the author Kim Stanley Robinson libertarians are typically “anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” That, or Pollyannas who have completely unrealistic ideas of how their utopian ideas would work in an actual human society.

[grude]

@Der_Trihs

Only just enough of one to keep the underclass from revolting. To quote the author Kim Stanley Robinson libertarians are typically “anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” That, or Pollyannas who have completely unrealistic ideas of how their utopian ideas would work in an actual human society.

Only because people keep playing the No True Scots…er Libertopia card. When anyone proposes what Libertopia might look like it draws basic criticisms that apply to all political philosophies, or someone finds some fringe lib that believes in something bizarre, or decides that since people don’t get to vote on the consitution(show me one country where the masses did) of Libertopia it isn’t libertarian, and that somehow disproves the hypothetical.

[Chimera]

Like all other ideologies, it depends on Humans not acting like Humans.

[grude]

@septimus

1. I wasn’t advocating theft. I point out that “Freedom” could be construed to allow freedom to steal. Libertarianism is all about Property Rights (as Lumpy has the grace to admit). Conflating property rights with “Freedom” is just propaganda.

2. Who mentioned “primary motivation”? Boundary cases are the path to clarity. And You tell us to read the Libertarian platform and, after we invest 20 seconds doing that, are surprised to learn Libertarians want to abolish income tax. :dubious: Now you tell us to “go back to reading.” Very amusing.

I’m still waiting for an answer about the political structure of Libertopia. … I’m not holding my breath.

1.I’ve never seen theft called a freedom, and it isn’t even up for debate that theft would be illegal under a lib government so…what exactly are we talking about?

2.Hey I’ve admitted the current libertarian party is…hard to define. When I first read about Ron Paul was considered kinda fringe and hardcore, now he seems like a moderate. His son Rand Paul calls himself a libertarian but advocates a christian theocracy!?:eek: How does that make sense?
Hell the thread mostly seems to be pot shots by those opposed to libertarianism, with questions that are really just traps designed to get proponents to say embarrassing things.

“So if I understand libertarianism right I have the freedom of sex, which means I can rape at will.”

[septimus]

@grude

1.I’ve never seen theft called a freedom

No one’s defending theft, per se (though the word itself implies property orientation). In Sweden, I once heard, everyone has the Freedom to gather wood in forest land even if it’s privately owned. In many countries, people have Freedom to travel on all beaches, or in mountains. What is Freedom?

“Libertarianism” would annoy me less if its adherents called it what it is: “Propertyism.”

I asked, repeatedly

I’m still waiting for an answer about the political structure of Libertopia. … I’m not holding my breath.

Stumped, hunh?

[Lumpy]

@Der_Trihs

When someone took everything he had

“Someone”. :rolleyes:

and when society decided to let him die.

“There is no such thing as society.” -Margaret Thatcher.

In other words, it IS 'pure “I’ve got mine, f-u” ';

Unless this is a Monty Python skit, flat contradiction is not an argument.