# Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002 "2018-06-13T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/241 "2018-06-18T04:00:10Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I can’t draw a Venn diagram here, but I see Incels as the point where “people who can’t get laid” intercepts with “psychocopaths” and “sociopaths”. There are psychopaths and sociopaths who can get laid, as well as people who can’t get laid who are neither psychopaths or sociopaths. My concern is that people in the latter group may be labeled “incel” if they complain too much about their lack of romantic success. I probably would have been concerned about people putting that label on me had it been a “thing” 25 years ago. Btw, that’s not directed at anyone who has contributed to this thread. As far as I know the term can only be claimed by the membership, like a club. You couldn’t externally label anyone an incel with any kind of certainty. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/242 "2018-06-18T12:23:28Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > As far as I know the term can only be claimed by the membership, like a club. You couldn’t externally label anyone an incel with any kind of certainty. As the term becomes more known, idiots will start (if they haven’t already) using it as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/243 "2018-06-18T12:34:08Z")
I’m pretty sure it will, because even on this MB, if I recall correctly, “MRA type” has been used against people to question their views on women even if they did not self-identify as an MRA. So it wouldn’t surprise me to see someone call a bitter “nice guy” poster an “Incel type”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/244 "2018-06-18T14:07:22Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’m pretty sure it will, because even on this MB, if I recall correctly, “MRA type” has been used against people to question their views on women even if they did not self-identify as an MRA. When I use it, it’s not because of people questioning views on women, it’s for for people who are _Active_ about posting threads in support of _Men’s_ _Rights_ bugbears, \*whether they self-identify or not \*- threads about a pandemic of false rape accusations, bias in divorce and child custody, etc. are MRA threads. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/245 "2018-06-18T14:23:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There is a meme out there that men are tall, heroes are tall, and being sexy as a male involves height as well as a six-pick of abs. Nevermind that there are Hollywood leading men like Tom Cruise that spend most of their professional lives standing on boxes so their leading ladies don’t tower over them (Tom is 5 foot 7 inches, or around 170 cm, and his ex wife Nicole Kidman stands 5 foot 11, or four inches/10 cm taller than him). The fact that Hollywood DOES put those short guys on boxes maintains the illusion that the hero is always taller than the girl. > > These guys are not the deepest thinkers. I can see them focusing on the illusion and not really grokking that Tom Cruise is shorter than average. For that matter, here’s a list of some successful celebrity guys who are all shorter than the US male average: > > 5 foot 8 - Mark Wahlberg, Ben Stiller > 5 foot 7 - Robert Downey, Jr., Tom Cruise, Jet Li, Martin Freeman, James McAvoy, Martin Short, David Spade > 5 foot 6 - Jack Black, Elijah Wood, Jon Stewart, Danny Trejo > 5 foot 5 - Daniel Radcliffe, Dustin Hoffman, Bruno Mars > 5 foot 4 - Michael J. Fox, Seth Green > 5 foot 2 - Kevin Hart, Prince > 5 foot 0 - Danny DeVito > 4 foot 5 - Peter Dinklage > > In some cases, Hollywood uses various tricks to make these guys look taller. Sometimes it doesn’t matter. For the _Hobbit_ movies they cast actors for the Dwarf characters that were all taller than Martin Freeman, so Freeman’s shorter height meant they _didn’t_ need visual tricks to portray him as a shorter-than-Dwarf hobbit. With Dinklage, either they ignore his lack of height, he’s playing a little person character, or, most recently, they have fun with the concept and he appears as an alien 10 foot tall “Dwarf” that towards over 6 foot 3 Chris Hemsworth. While I’m sure every single one of those guys has had to deal with some crap for being shorter than average, some of them a LOT of crap, _clearly_ a man can be short (even severely short) and be very successful and get laid by women. This is a great example of “the exception proves the rule”. The only reason you can come up with a list like this is because there are so few such people. You couldn’t get together a comparable list of “male celebrities taller than 5’ 8"”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/246 "2018-06-18T14:25:11Z")
The notion that “Being short isn’t a disadvantage because so-and-so is short and still successful” is no different than the logic that “Minorities aren’t at a disadvantage because such-and-such a person is minority and successful.” It’s not negating the fact that it is a disadvantage; it’s simply citing an example of someone who \*\*overcame \*\*the disadvantage nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/247 "2018-06-18T14:59:05Z")
Oh for fuck’s sake! Actors aren’t the only role models for men. You have any idea how many top tier military badasses are short? The toughest guy I know, who started in Vietnam as an infantry grunt, transferred to aviation and became a warrant officer, flew the OH-6 and Huey Cobra helicopters all throughout that war _and_ the Gulf War and became part of the 160th SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment) and was a test pilot for about 10 years - in other words, the pinnacle of the most demanding combat aviation in the world short of flying supersonic fighters, and still arguably more dangerous than the latter - is 5’5. The only Navy SEAL that I know personally - or _knew_, anyway, back in high school before he joined the Navy - was a three-sport athlete and the definition of a stud even _before_ he earned his Trident. He’s about 5’7. You can even be a short _nerd_ and still be a badass. The writer Harlan Ellison never had any problem attracting women or making friends, and he’s so short that his height has been the subject of jokes for decades. This whole thing is horseshit. Anyone who sits around in pity for himself because actors in the movies are taller than him, is a dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/248 "2018-06-18T15:02:55Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake! Actors aren’t the only role models for men. You have any idea how many top tier military badasses are short? You seem to be missing the point. “Role models” has nothing to do with it. The point is that actors are chosen in large part because of their physical attributes. “Top tier military badasses” are not. The fact that actors tend to be tall strongly suggests that tall height is an attractive physical characteristic. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/249 "2018-06-18T15:17:05Z")
Who gives a fuck about physical attributes? If you’re relatively height-weight proportional, you don’t smell bad, and you practice basic grooming, you’ve got all the physical attributes you need to do whatever it is that you want to do with the opposite (or same) sex. Everything else comes from your personal qualities, and there is no ceiling, theoretically, for improving those. Worrying about height _as it pertains to sexual relations_ is like worrying about the color of a Formula 1 car as it pertains to racing. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/250 "2018-06-18T15:36:51Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Who gives a fuck about physical attributes?.. I get your emotionality here, but the simple fact is that _a lot of people care about physical attributes_. Like literally _everyone_. Anecdotes about short actors, or short soldiers, or short politiciabns, are _irrelevant_ to the fact that \*most \*actors are taller, \*most \*successful politicians are taller, and \*most \*people find taller men more attractive. It’s lame as fuck, and you’re totally right that in a perfect world shorter guys wouldn’t care. But it ain’t a perfect world, and sometimes it only takes one person being explicit about “I won’t date you because you’re not tall enough” to ignite all the internalized self-doubt and self-hatred that height bias can instill in shorter men. . ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/251 "2018-06-18T15:38:13Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Who gives a fuck about physical attributes? If you’re relatively height-weight proportional, you don’t smell bad, and you practice basic grooming, you’ve got all the physical attributes you need to do whatever it is that you want to do with the opposite (or same) sex. Everything else comes from your personal qualities, and there is no ceiling, theoretically, for improving those. Worrying about height _as it pertains to sexual relations_ is like worrying about the color of a Formula 1 car as it pertains to racing. Many many people care about physical attributes, especially (but by no means exclusively) when it comes to relationships. I don’t think a debate about this is worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/252 "2018-06-18T15:53:57Z")
Just from my own personal experience: in high school, I was considered to be an attractive guy. I was an athlete; I was in great shape; I got told that I looked like James Lafferty, who was an actor on a popular show called _One Tree Hill._ I routinely heard “[my friend] thinks you’re hot” from girls, which really means that the person saying it thinks you’re hot, but I wasn’t savvy enough to pick up on that. I wasn’t savvy enough to pick up on anything when it came to girls. My friends were getting laid left and right - as in, I’d _hear_ them in rooms at parties - including numerous guys who I felt were lacking in the looks department. Meanwhile I was lying about my sexual experience. “What the hell?” I’d think privately. “Why isn’t it happening for me? _I have what it takes_, so why isn’t it happening?” I was so oblivious to the idea of charisma and just having the forwardness to make a move. I didn’t have sex until college. That’s the result of a guy putting too much emphasis on how he looks. If I could go back in time…well, actually, I don’t know if I’d do anything differently…Butterfly Effect and what have you. But at least now I can offer advice to other people who are operating under the same faulty logic that I was. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/253 "2018-06-18T16:07:07Z")
The countless number of people on the SDMB and the internet in general who have expressed lack of attraction towards black women shoots a giant hole in the “no one cares about physical attraction” argument. People say this shit even though the diversity contained within the “black woman” category is off the charts. People do care. They may not all care about the same things everywhere and at the same time. But there are nonetheless many traits that are clearly disadvantaged. Very few people are drawn to crooked, heavily discolored teeth, for instance. Disadvantaged traits are not insurmountable. Most undesirable traits can be finessed or compensated for. But not everyone is born with the skills and abilities to do this. And the truth of the matter is that luck plays a huge role in the art of attraction. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/254 "2018-06-18T16:10:01Z")
That goes beyond “lookism” and into straight up racism. It’s not really the same thing, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/255 "2018-06-18T16:25:51Z")
> [@andros](#): > > It’s lame as fuck, and you’re totally right that in a perfect world shorter guys wouldn’t care. > > But it ain’t a perfect world, and sometimes it only takes one person being explicit about “I won’t date you because you’re not tall enough” to ignite all the internalized self-doubt and self-hatred that height bias can instill in shorter men. > . Indeed. And I think it’s very risky to act as if people in general should and do tune out societal messages of what’s attractive. We listen to our culture and marketing. And that’s not a bad thing. If we didn’t, we couldn’t hear good messages about treating people well. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/256 "2018-06-18T16:33:04Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > That goes beyond “lookism” and into straight up racism. It’s not really the same thing, IMO. No, it’s part and parcel of the same thing. Societal and cultural standards of beauty both inform, and are informed by, attitudes about race. . ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/257 "2018-06-18T16:37:02Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But it ain’t a perfect world, and sometimes it only takes one person being explicit about “I won’t date you because you’re not tall enough” to ignite all the internalized self-doubt and self-hatred that height bias can instill in shorter men. > . Is this something that women actually say to guys with any kind of frequency? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/258 "2018-06-18T16:49:14Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > That goes beyond “lookism” and into straight up racism. It’s not really the same thing, IMO. There’s considerable overlap, to the point where sometimes lookism IS racism. And even then this is a difference without a distinction. Your appearance, and your race, are both things you are born with, and things people may reject you because of. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/259 "2018-06-18T16:49:24Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Is this something that women actually say to guys with any kind of frequency? I have heard women say this openly, to whomever is listening. They also do it online, through social media. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/260 "2018-06-18T16:51:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The countless number of people on the SDMB and the internet in general who have expressed lack of attraction towards black women shoots a giant hole in the “no one cares about physical attraction” argument. People say this shit even though the diversity contained within the “black woman” category is off the charts. > > People do care. They may not all care about the same things everywhere and at the same time. But there are nonetheless many traits that are clearly disadvantaged. Very few people are drawn to crooked, heavily discolored teeth, for instance. > > Disadvantaged traits are not insurmountable. Most undesirable traits can be finessed or compensated for. But not everyone is born with the skills and abilities to do this. And the truth of the matter is that luck plays a huge role in the art of attraction. Exactly. Some people like to pretend that humans are some elevated tribe that are above things like judging people on the basis of crooked teeth, a waddling gait, skin color, etc. They’re describing something fictional and non-human. People are deeply looks-and-appearance oriented. Studies have shown that juries treat defendants harsher or more lenient on the basis of appearance. People can earn more or less income in part due to appearance in some workplaces. Yet somehow, in dating and relationships, appearances are of trifling little importance or none at all? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=14)