# Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002 "2018-06-13T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/281 "2018-06-18T18:38:36Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But it ain’t a perfect world, and sometimes it only takes one person being explicit about “I won’t date you because you’re not tall enough” to ignite all the internalized self-doubt and self-hatred that height bias can instill in shorter men. > . > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Is this something that women actually say to guys with any kind of frequency? It’s common on Tinder and Bumble (dating apps). Despite the fact that there are only a couple hundred characters available to describe yourself and who you’re looking for, I often see women specify a minimum height for men they wish to date. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/282 "2018-06-18T19:26:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Some of it is also about avoidance as well. I once read a Reddit comment by a woman to the effect that many women weren’t so much attracted to tall men as they are repulsed by short men, because it was embarrassing for many women to be seen with a male mate who is shorter than they are. A man didn’t have to be significantly taller than his GF - even just 1-2 inches would do - but he just couldn’t be shorter than the woman, that’s all. That’s what my wife says too. She’s 6’2", and says she always felt really awkward and imposing when dating shorter men. She typically aimed for men taller than her, but somehow I was able to not make her feel imposing, despite being a little more than an inch shorter than she is. (probably something to do with the shorter version of the NFL lineman build that I have). I gotta wonder how many of the incels are adhering to unrealistic standards of beauty for women and declaring themselves to be incels because no hot women will hop into bed with them, when they might have decent chances with women who aren’t so conventionally attractive (fatter, uglier, shorter, taller, etc…) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/283 "2018-06-18T20:37:18Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s what my wife says too. She’s 6’2", and says she always felt really awkward and imposing when dating shorter men. She typically aimed for men taller than her, but somehow I was able to not make her feel imposing, despite being a little more than an inch shorter than she is. (probably something to do with the shorter version of the NFL lineman build that I have). > > I gotta wonder how many of the incels are adhering to unrealistic standards of beauty for women and declaring themselves to be incels because no hot women will hop into bed with them, when they might have decent chances with women who aren’t so conventionally attractive (fatter, uglier, shorter, taller, etc…) My hypothesis is that Incel-ish guys suffer from status-envy. They are and/or perceive themselves as not having any status…and not just because they don’t have a girlfriend. So it makes sense that a conventionally attractive girl is what they want. Think of this way: Status-insecure poor kids don’t want generic sneakers, even though any sneaker is better than no sneaker. No, they want a name brand sneaker–preferably a high-status brand. They know a high-status brand won’t tranform them into a rich kid, but it will give them an edge over poor kids dressed in “ugly” bobos. The internet has made it so that status symbols are not just something one buys. They are also embodied by the experiences and relationships that are “flashed” in ones social media. Incels have internalized the message that you ain’t nobody if you ain’t flashing the right stuff, and this message makes them enraged. While others have internalized the same message and have become sad and depressed as a result. And of course, it is easy to tell all young people to stop comparing themselves to others and stop going on social media. But neither of these things are easy to implement, not for a person with an undeveloped frontal lobe and who has spent his whole life interacting with peers via electrons. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/284 "2018-06-18T21:01:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a great example of “the exception proves the rule”. > The only reason you can come up with a list like this is because there are so few such people. You couldn’t get together a comparable list of “male celebrities taller than 5’ 8"”. A few points: [ul][li]The point is NOT that being short is of no consequence to a man in regards to dating, but that it is not something that dooms him to a life of loneliness.[/li] [li]I sort of have to stick to celebrities because if I told you the names of the many short men I’ve known and/or dated (because I kind of like short, I’m perverted that way) you would say “Who?” because you don’t know those guys.[/li] [li]Also, the list could have been a LOT longer - if I wanted to list successful military guys I could have started with Napoleon Bonaparte and gone on from there. Short athletes? Start with the racing jockeys and go from there. So on and so forth. I threw out a list of guys who are both short and considered good looking enough for Hollywood to both feature them as leading men and pay them a crapton of money.[/li][/ul] You could have flung out that “exception proves the rule” if I had, say, listed Hollywood leading men of African descent - sure, being black is a disadvantage, but it doesn’t automatically and always condemn you to obscure poverty. Or are you saying no one should hold up any positive examples? > [@Velocity](#): > > The notion that “Being short isn’t a disadvantage because so-and-so is short and still successful” is no different than the logic that “Minorities aren’t at a disadvantage because such-and-such a person is minority and successful.” It’s not negating the fact that it is a disadvantage; it’s simply citing an example of someone who \*\*overcame \*\*the disadvantage nonetheless. > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake! Actors aren’t the only role models for men. You have any idea how many top tier military badasses are short? ^ Exactly Any area of human endeavor you care to name, you can probably come up with a list of short guys who do well in it. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Role models” has nothing to do with it. The point is that actors are chosen in large part because of their physical attributes. “Top tier military badasses” are not. The fact that actors tend to be tall strongly suggests that tall height is an attractive physical characteristic. And the fact that significant numbers of actors are NOT tall indicates that it is not the only attribute required to be either an actor or considered attractive enough to be a leading man. > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Is this something that women actually say to guys with any kind of frequency? Yes, unfortunately some women are jackasses, intolerant, shallow, and jerks. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/285 "2018-06-18T21:07:25Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The internet has made it so that status symbols are not just something one buys. They are also embodied by the experiences and relationships that are “flashed” in ones social media. Incels have internalized the message that you ain’t nobody if you ain’t flashing the right stuff, and this message makes them enraged. While others have internalized the same message and have become sad and depressed as a result. > > And of course, it is easy to tell all young people to stop comparing themselves to others and stop going on social media. But neither of these things are easy to implement, not for a person with an undeveloped frontal lobe and who has spent his whole life interacting with peers via electrons. To be entirely fair to those damn millennials with their technologies and internet thingies all over our lawn, you don’t need an internet to tell you that other people have what you don’t and that you’re lesser because you have a mediocre existence. The element the internet adds to the mix is the ability to meet up with other people who will reinforce the idea that flawed as you are, you still deserve all the perfect outcomes, and of course the internet puts you in contact with misogynists who can tell you that it’s all a plot by the evil wimmins who we should hates for it, precious. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/286 "2018-06-18T21:08:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He said that any given person who is more attracted to white people can be assumed to be influenced by the culture etc. This only follows from an assumption that it’s unlikely the person might just happen to prefer white people’s appearance… “Might just happen to prefer” is an interesting turn of phrase. What mechanism other than environment would you think holds greater sway over our attractions, our preferences, or our kinks? Would you hold that being more attracted to tall people, or white people, or blue-eyed people is (to whatever degree) an innate biological drive? . ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/287 "2018-06-19T10:50:05Z")
[Helicopter parenting linked to poor emotional regulation later in life](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jun/18/over-controlled-toddlers-grow-up-unable-to-cope). It’s always interesting to me how the discussion of Incels rarely touches on how they might have been parented. After all, we are talking about young people who are typically still living at home. As research continues, what may emerge is that men with the Incel mindset were not allowed to trouble-shoot their own problems during their formative years. When someone is always doing that for you, perhaps you develop less self-efficacy and a heightened sense of entitlement (“All I have to do is show up and I’ll get what I want, since that’s how it has always worked”). One thing I’ve noticed from my interactions with Forever Alone types is these peeps frequently perceive their parents to be overbearing or overprotective. I say “perceive” because I don’t want to take their word that that’s always an accurate assessment. But I suspect that it’s true for many. At the very least, it may be that parents today are tacitly encouraging more asocial behavior due to their own fears about the world. The kid who prefers playing video games all day elicits less anxious parenting than the kid who wants to go outside and play all the time. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/288 "2018-06-19T11:24:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I gotta wonder how many of the incels are adhering to unrealistic standards of beauty for women and declaring themselves to be incels because no hot women will hop into bed with them, when they might have decent chances with women who aren’t so conventionally attractive (fatter, uglier, shorter, taller, etc…) I agree with **monstro** that status-envy is behind their focus on “Stacie’s”, but I also wonder if it’s part of the whole self-sabotaging complex that pretty much ensures they will stay an incel. Setting the bar so high guarantees they will fail, and that’s essentially want to believe will always happen because it means they can stop trying. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/289 "2018-06-19T13:49:08Z")
> [@andros](#): > > “Might just happen to prefer” is an interesting turn of phrase. What mechanism other than environment would you think holds greater sway over our attractions, our preferences, or our kinks? Would you hold that being more attracted to tall people, or white people, or blue-eyed people is (to whatever degree) an innate biological drive?. Absolutely. What people are attracted to definitely has innate biological elements. It may be easier if you think about it in terms of animals. Animals don’t (for the most part) have much of an environmental influence over attraction, but they have clear preferences, much like people. In general, creatures - whether human or animal - are programmed to be attracted to mates who offer them or their offspring some sort of advantage. In the case of tall mates, the advantage is pretty obvious. For the other traits it’s not as apparent. However, it would seem logical that whatever survival advantage spurred the development of these traits to begin with would have the same impact on the development of innate mate preferences. It’s also worth bearing in mind that traits can sometimes be advantageous in one narrow circumstance but evolve in a broader manner. So for example, suppose an innate preference for lighter colors was advantageous in some context, then this could transfer to mate preferences even if there was no advantage in that context. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/290 "2018-06-19T14:01:00Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Is this something that women actually say to guys with any kind of frequency? If a guy is being a jerk (pursuing a woman despite her obvious attempt to ignore him), saying you are rejecting him because his height, race , ethnicity, any characteristic he can’t change, etc, is often the fastest way to get rid of him. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/291 "2018-06-19T14:12:10Z")
This is getting a bit afield from incels and mitigating threat. **Fotheringay-Phipps** , **iiandyiiii** , and whoever else is interested in continuing this line of discussion, [your presence is requested](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=857093). . ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/292 "2018-06-19T15:18:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I agree with **monstro** that status-envy is behind their focus on “Stacie’s”, but I also wonder if it’s part of the whole self-sabotaging complex that pretty much ensures they will stay an incel. Setting the bar so high guarantees they will fail, and that’s essentially want to believe will always happen because it means they can stop trying. That’s a good analysis. You also have the idea that they can hold themselves up as “having standards”. In my experience, most of the guys with “standards” were ones not getting laid much, and using that as an excuse for awkwardness or general misanthropy. That’s not to say you have to want to jump the homeless woman on the bus, but “standards” as I always heard them used meant “I won’t consider a woman who’s not at least in the 85th percentile of attractiveness”, despite said standards-haver not being anywhere near the 85th percentile of male attractiveness, income, height, etc… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/293 "2018-06-19T16:38:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I agree with **monstro** that status-envy is behind their focus on “Stacie’s”, but I also wonder if it’s part of the whole self-sabotaging complex that pretty much ensures they will stay an incel. Setting the bar so high guarantees they will fail, and that’s essentially want to believe will always happen because it means they can stop trying. Probably about 90% of the incentive to _be_ an Incel is that you have an excuse to stop trying. Literally everything I’m hearing about the subculture pursues one of three ends: 1. Justifying inaction by claiming what they want is unattainable. 2. Shifting the blame for this unattainability to somebody besides themselves so they don’t have to feel bad about their inaction. 3. Viciously attacking anyone and anything that suggests the above excuses/whining are actually wrong (which might mean they’d have to work), be it successful men, honest women, anybody who has sex… Not that I’m in a great position to criticize them for seeking inactivity since I myself have carved out a rationale for utterly giving up on pursuing romance. Still doesn’t make their approach to laziness admirable, though - especially since it’s so damned hostile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=14)