# Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002 "2018-06-13T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/121 "2018-06-13T20:41:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Here’s a couple of problems with that (and I, too, would prefer to see legal sex work available in the US): > > 1. Legal prostitution still costs money. Some of these guys don’t have any. Others don’t want to pay for it. > > 2. Legal prostitutes have standards. I’ve yet to hear about any system with legal prostitution where the women can’t refuse to service certain people (whether that’s evidence of STD’s or indications of violence) > > The result is that while it will alleviate some of the problem (we hope) it will not take care of all of. I’m all for incremental improvement, but I don’t think it’s quite as easy as “legal sex work”. I agree 100%. Unfortunately there will be violent insane people of every type. Hopefully, one day mental illness will be extinct. Many illnesses like smallpox are extinct already. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/122 "2018-06-13T20:56:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I didn’t see anyone talking about getting out of morality. :rolleyes: \*Nobody \*brings up “but it’s biological” without the implied “and therefore somewhat out of their control” - which is a morality argument. > [@](#): > > Incels don’t just want biological satisfaction - they want girlfriends. Suuuure they do. _That’s_ why they want legalized sex slavery - for the _handholding_! C’mon, don’t insult both our intelligences. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/123 "2018-06-13T21:00:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _That’s_ why they want legalized sex slavery - for the _handholding_! C’mon, don’t insult both our intelligences. And don’t insult ours. I don’t know where you get this notion from, but the vast majority of Reddit threads in the incel forums are about nothing of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/124 "2018-06-13T21:01:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Here’s a couple of problems with that (and I, too, would prefer to see legal sex work available in the US): > > 1. Legal prostitution still costs money. Some of these guys don’t have any. Others don’t want to pay for it. > > 2. Legal prostitutes have standards. I’ve yet to hear about any system with legal prostitution where the women can’t refuse to service certain people (whether that’s evidence of STD’s or indications of violence) > > The result is that while it will alleviate some of the problem (we hope) it will not take care of all of. I’m all for incremental improvement, but I don’t think it’s quite as easy as “legal sex work”. I don’t think legalizing sex work would do anything for this population. I think it’s dangerous to act like the problem of radicalized men is really about intercourse. We can’t fix a lack of social connectivity by making it legal to pay for sex. It’s like fixing loneliness by letting people pay to go to a movie. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/125 "2018-06-13T21:02:59Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > It’s like fixing loneliness by letting people pay to go to a movie. Exactly. The people proposing legalized prostitution or suggesting masturbation are suggesting things that are laughably inadequate substitutes for the real thing. It’s like trying to console a childless person (but still capable of conceiving or fathering) by telling him/her to get pets. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/126 "2018-06-13T21:06:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think the idea of making prostitution more available also misses the point. Incels don’t want prostitutes either. They want what they think everyone else gets automatically… I think what they are seeking is the perceived status that comes with a girlfriend. Girlfriend = “I am not a loser, even if that is how I may appear from the outside”. If you don’t have any brains or athletic ability, there isn’t that much left to hang your hat on besides your social/sexual prowess. Prostitutes don’t take away the stink of “loser”. Just like no one brags about having a psychotherapist instead of a BFF. Doing so would just conform to everyone they are indeed a loser **Left Hand of Dorkness** , almost every incident of virgin-shaming I have witnessed or experienced has come from guys. In my experience, a woman may express pity for the late-stage virgin in her midst, but she will be quick to say that sex isn’t all that big of a deal, so that person ain’t missing much. I have never heard a guy say something like this. There aren’t too many women who say shit like “Bro, have you even toughed a girl?” I suspect most guys stop with this nonsense once they reach a certain age, but the message is one that sticks with a person. Especially a person that doesn’t hsve a lot going for them except their high score on a video game. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/127 "2018-06-13T21:09:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And don’t insult ours. I don’t know where you get this notion from, but the vast majority of Reddit threads in the incel forums are about nothing of that sort. And I’m sure Stormfront had lovely threads about the best place to buy khakis, too… doesn’t negate any of the vile shit I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/128 "2018-06-13T21:15:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Exactly. The people proposing legalized prostitution or suggesting masturbation are suggesting things that are laughably inadequate substitutes for the real thing. I didn’t suggest masturbation as a fix for the (non)fuckers, I only raised it as a counter to the “biological urges” thing. For the \*rest \*of their major malfunction, I can only suggest therapy and drugs. Or possibly institutionalization. Because the problem isn’t that they don’t have girlfriends. It’s that they’re fundamentally fucked in the head. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/129 "2018-06-13T21:16:32Z")
[quote=“Penfeather, post:5, topic:816002”] I suspect that a lot of it comes down to directing your criticism internally versus directing it externally: do you blame yourself for being socially awkward, or do you blame society for not providing you with a mate? QUOTE] That’s what I’ve read and seen too. These guys don’t do the typical self-examination that concludes with some kind of hard truth that they’re unattractive due to reasons within their control, and (mostly) due to their own actions. Instead, they make the assumption that they’re awesome, and blame external factors, chief among them, women. Because you know, they’re the ones saying no and refusing to date them, etc… so the problem \*must \*lie with them. They also blame other more successful men for poisoning the well, so to speak. I personally think that the biggest contributing factor is the early and often message among teenage boys that losing ones virginity and tally of sex conquests are the measure of a man. It essentially reduces it down to a matter of whether you’ve had sex with a woman and if so, how many? If these guys can’t answer these questions in a “positive” way by a certain age, they’ll start to look at themselves as irredeemable losers, regardless of whatever other qualities they may have. Think about it this way… someone could be a Roy Benavidez style bad-ass in combat, and let it slip that he’s still a virgin, and people will be amazed and wonder what’s up with him/what’s wrong with him, even though this guy is as macho as can be. I suspect what we’re seeing these days is the echo chamber effect of a phenomenon that started sometime in the 1960s-1970s with the advent of the pill and sexual revolution when premarital sex became more common (or so they say). It’s just that your average incel in 1982 was a loner and didn’t have anyone to discuss it with in the same boat, much less a nationwide/worldwide community of like-minded men. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/130 "2018-06-13T21:17:54Z")
What I find so deeply disturbing about the whole “movement” is who they identify as the source of their pain. Because there are many potential sources. 1. Themselves and their social ugliness 2. Other men who have shamed them 3. Their families, who didn’t raise them right 4. The media, which gives them such a skewed version of reality 5. Pornography, which ditto above 6. Societal norms which have changed from young male attractiveness being a function of being solvent, hard-working, and morally upright to being a jerkoff hook-up cad with money. But no, they blame the people they can go out and humiliate and hurt right now – women. People who have zero to do with their problems, and are struggling out of victimhood themselves. Go for the weak! It is absolutely loathsome and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/131 "2018-06-13T21:20:36Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > It’s that, plus it’s seeing the engine that powers the whole thing. You recognize the institutional biases and accept them and abide by them. You’re not going to challenge it at all. Well, if you’re talking about what I _personally_ am doing, and given that I basically blame _the entirety of popular culture_ for creating the toxic pressures that make lonely men feel shamed and angry, I am forced to admit that my ability to personally redirect the message of the entirety of popular culture is basically nil. I don’t even own a major motion picture studio! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/132 "2018-06-13T21:25:20Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > What I find so deeply disturbing about the whole “movement” is who they identify as the source of their pain. Because there are many potential sources. > > 1. Themselves and their social ugliness > 2. Other men who have shamed them > 3. Their families, who didn’t raise them right > 4. The media, which gives them such a skewed version of reality > 5. Pornography, which ditto above > 6. Societal norms which have changed from young male attractiveness being a function of being solvent, hard-working, and morally upright to being a jerkoff hook-up cad with money. > > But no, they blame the people they can go out and humiliate and hurt right now – women. People who have zero to do with their problems, and are struggling out of victimhood themselves. Go for the weak! > > It is absolutely loathsome and disgusting. Like the saying that extremism begets extremism though, some of the incels are feeding off of, and reposting, the extreme examples of women that they find. See this Reddit incel thread, for instance, in which someone re-posted two Twitter screenshots of women saying, [_ **“Short guys should go kill themselves or something,”** _ and also,\*\*\* “Maybe they should just kill off all the short guys and feed them to children in Africa.”\*\*\*](https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8qt2tr/femoid_advocates_mass_genocide_of_manlets_to_be/) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/133 "2018-06-13T22:07:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Exactly. The people proposing legalized prostitution or suggesting masturbation are suggesting things that are laughably inadequate substitutes for the real thing. > > It’s like trying to console a childless person (but still capable of conceiving or fathering) by telling him/her to get pets. I don’t think you mean to agree with me, given that you appear to think being without sex is the problem. I don’t. I think that if someone is without sex, masturbation and prostitutes are fine answers. Lack of connection to others can’t be fixed through masturbation and prostitution, but lack of connection to others isn’t about sex. So don’t think we are in agreement if we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/134 "2018-06-13T22:17:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is that what you say about the murders at Hebdo, or the Oklahoma City Bombings, all other terrorist murders? If not, why do you need to minimize this sort of terrorism but not other sorts? Numbers certainly don’t have anything to do with it. I don’t know what **Quartz** was getting at by mentioning ratios. Incel terrorism certainly isn’t something to be frightened of, based on the numbers, but neither are other forms of terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/135 "2018-06-13T22:19:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Like the saying that extremism begets extremism though, some of the incels are feeding off of, and reposting, the extreme examples of women that they find. > > See this Reddit incel thread, for instance, in which someone re-posted two Twitter screenshots of women saying, [_ **“Short guys should go kill themselves or something,”** _ and also,\*\*\* “Maybe they should just kill off all the short guys and feed them to children in Africa.”\*\*\*](https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8qt2tr/femoid_advocates_mass_genocide_of_manlets_to_be/) Well, that certainly refutes the argument that all women are perfect moral beings and no woman has ever said anything shitty ever. Can you point me to the post where anyone made that argument? I’m having a hard time finding it. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/136 "2018-06-13T22:56:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In what ways does our culture treat women as somehow responsible for the emotional status and self-esteem of these “angry losers”? Oh, you know, headlines like this after murders: [Spurned advances provoked Texas school shooting, victim’s mother says](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting/spurned-advances-provoked-texas-school-shooting-victims-mother-says-idUSKCN1IL0D9?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5b0188c604d3014e388296b4&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter) [Texas school shooter killed girl who turned down his advances and embarrassed him in class](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-shooter-20180519-story.html) [Breakup With Fiancee May Have Motivated Golden State Killer](https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/golden-state-killer-motive-breakup-fiancee/2018/04/30/id/857417/) [EXCLUSIVE- Ex-fiancee who broke suspected Golden State Killer’s heart, and ‘sparked his rape and murder’ spree, is a travel blogger who went on to marry successful accountant and is now in hiding](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5669153/Suspected-Golden-State-Killers-love-Bonnie-revealed.html) [Sante Fe school shooting: Suspect ‘was rejected’ by victim Shana Fisher](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44194074?ocid=socialflow_twitter) Oh, but women don’t just make women kill, they make them drink and drive too: [Wife’s absence led to Silverchair drummer’s drinking before car crash, court told](https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/wife-s-absence-led-to-silverchair-drummer-s-drinking-before-car-crash-20180412-p4z9ah.html) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/137 "2018-06-13T23:04:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Exactly. The people proposing legalized prostitution or suggesting masturbation are suggesting things that are laughably inadequate substitutes for the real thing. Is either prostitution or masturbation going to cure all things wrong with that crowd? No. No one is suggesting it will. But it might reduce the level of sexual frustration which _might_ reduce some of the anger and frustration. I’d expect them to still be dysfunctional, they just wouldn’t be so damn horny. It might help whittle away at the problem. It might not. It might work for some but not others. > [@](#): > > It’s like trying to console a childless person (but still capable of conceiving or fathering) by telling him/her to get pets. Speaking as someone now in her 50’s with no children - yes, my pets DO fill some of that gap. Does it work for everyone? No. And I wouldn’t tell someone childless and unhappy about it to get a dog. But it’s not unheard of for the furbabies to be somewhat a child substitute. For _some_ it can fill a void. For some it can’t. For those for whom it can it’s as valid as any other approach to alleviating that frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/138 "2018-06-13T23:18:42Z")
Why do I think approaching this from a “just get them laid and that’ll fix most of their problems” perspective is so wrong-headed? Because hatred, that’s why. Hatred is not solved by getting the thing you imagine you want. I am reminded of the true story of the sisters who feuded for decades over who was going to inherit the wonderful family villa in France. The sister who finally got possession immediately went out and burnt it to the ground. This is something I think most of us can understand. These are not people who need to have sex. These are people who need to grieve and atone and heal. The work they need to do is deep and inner and highly unlikely (but not impossible). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/139 "2018-06-13T23:21:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Is either prostitution or masturbation going to cure all things wrong with that crowd? No. No one is suggesting it will. But it might reduce the level of sexual frustration which _might_ reduce some of the anger and frustration. I’d expect them to still be dysfunctional, they just wouldn’t be so damn horny. It might help whittle away at the problem. It might not. It might work for some but not others. From the sound of it you are making an argument that relies on the following assumption: 1. To have achieved their current level of sexual frustration, it is reasonable to conclude that incels and proto-incels _haven’t figured out how to masturbate_. Speaking as a man, it’s not that hard of a thing to figure out, at least not for us. I’m pretty sure that each and every incel and proto-incel knows how to masturbate, and does so regularly. Which, come to think of it, suggests that the problem isn’t sexual frustration at the physical level. Which works for me because I never thought it was - I’m of the opinion that the feelings of shame and anger that incels and proto-incels feel is entirely derived from societal pressures. Which leads me to be skeptical that prostitutes will completely solve the problem either - banging prostitutes isn’t really as status-imparting as having women willingly following you around. But at the very least legal prostitution would solve the “_why am I still a virgin?!?_” types, so who knows, let’s give it a shot. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/140 "2018-06-13T23:23:13Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Why do I think approaching this from a “just get them laid and that’ll fix most of their problems” perspective is so wrong-headed? Because hatred, that’s why. Nothing will fix the ones who have already embraced a mentality of hatred. A more achievable goal would be to stop up the flow of new recruits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=8)