# Incels, terrorism, and preventative measures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002 "2018-06-13T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/141 "2018-06-13T23:27:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > From the sound of it you are making an argument that relies on the following assumption: > > 1. To have achieved their current level of sexual frustration, it is reasonable to conclude that incels and proto-incels _haven’t figured out how to masturbate_. Either that, or they come from a background that has instilled hang-ups about masturbation, teaching it’s “sinful” or wrong or for losers or a “real man” fucks women and not his hand. > [@](#): > > [Which leads me to be skeptical that prostitutes will completely solve the problem either - banging prostitutes isn’t really as status-imparting as having women willingly following you around. But at the very least legal prostitution would solve the “_why am I still a virgin?!?_” types, so who knows, let’s give it a shot. Sure - it will “cure” their virginity. Some might be OK with “hiring” a “girlfriend” or escort. It might keep some sliding down the path to radicalism. No guarantees, but maybe it’s worth a try. Got any other ideas? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/142 "2018-06-13T23:32:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Either that, or they come from a background that has instilled hang-ups about masturbation, teaching it’s “sinful” or wrong or for losers or a “real man” fucks women and not his hand. I’ll concede that there are possibly some guys with religious hangups, but I suspect they’d give chicken choking a shot before leaping to hate speech. But maybe not; what do I know? The ‘real man’ types aren’t going to be any happier if they try masturbating; heck they might even get madder, due to having been “forced” to “resort” to the unmanly action. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Sure - it will “cure” their virginity. Some might be OK with “hiring” a “girlfriend” or escort. It might keep some sliding down the path to radicalism. No guarantees, but maybe it’s worth a try. > > Got any other ideas? Me? Nope. But as noted I _am_ okay with giving legalized prostitution a shot. Um, good luck getting that through the government in these parts. And now I’m wondering if there’s a lower incidence of incelship in Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/143 "2018-06-13T23:36:05Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Why do I think approaching this from a “just get them laid and that’ll fix most of their problems” perspective is so wrong-headed? I didn’t propose “getting them laid” would fix “most” of their problems. It would fix _some_ of the problem for _some_ of them. > [@](#): > > Hatred is not solved by getting the thing you imagine you want. I don’t think they “imagine” they want sex, I think they _really do_ want sex. It’s sort of normal for men to want sex. > [@](#): > > These are not people who need to have sex. These are people who need to grieve and atone and heal. The work they need to do is deep and inner and highly unlikely (but not impossible). No one “needs” sex in the sense they need food or water, but desiring sex is a pretty significant motivation for a lot of people, both men and women. If they could have a safe and legal outlet with women willing to perform the act with them I don’t see a valid reason to deny them. Remember, MOST of these incels have not committed any crime, and most will not. They should not be treated as criminals unless they perform criminal _acts_. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/144 "2018-06-13T23:44:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I didn’t propose “getting them laid” would fix “most” of their problems. It would fix _some_ of the problem for _some_ of them. > I don’t think they “imagine” they want sex, I think they _really do_ want sex. It’s sort of normal for men to want sex. > No one “needs” sex in the sense they need food or water, but desiring sex is a pretty significant motivation for a lot of people, both men and women. If they could have a safe and legal outlet with women willing to perform the act with them I don’t see a valid reason to deny them. Remember, MOST of these incels have not committed any crime, and most will not. They should not be treated as criminals unless they perform criminal _acts_. Oh, I don’t think it’s in their imagination, I just don’t think it would fix them in any significant way. But then I don’t have a male libido nor male aggression (I’m not unacquainted with hatred so I have that going for me). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/145 "2018-06-13T23:52:29Z")
I don’t think it has anything to do with libido. I think it has to do with what being a male virgin _means_ - what it says about a person when they’re a male who isn’t getting any. Now, you might say ‘But there’s nothing wrong with male celibacy! I wouldn’t think even slightly less of a man due to his sexual inactivity.’ It’s my belief that incels, each and every one down to the last, would disagree. -In fact it’s actually worse - observe that a preferred incel insult is “cuck”. As in “cuckold”. As in “Man who isn’t able to control his woman because other men are more sexually attractive”. So it may not be enough to sexually active (which could be bad news for the prostitution approach) - it may be necessary to be sexually _dominant_. The sexiest man around. More sexy than anybody. That’s going to be a hard nut to crack. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/146 "2018-06-14T00:41:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, if you’re talking about what I _personally_ am doing, and given that I basically blame _the entirety of popular culture_ for creating the toxic pressures that make lonely men feel shamed and angry, I am forced to admit that my ability to personally redirect the message of the entirety of popular culture is basically nil. I don’t even own a major motion picture studio! Oh, that’s disappointing. If as you say a man’s literal worth is tied to his sexual activity, a woman’s from a man’s point of view is tied to her fuckability. Society expects women to be fuckable. It’s a visual thing. A significant number of women do not care about this, and I support that wholeheartedly. I’m going to support most measures in which people get out there and defy conventions and not spend a lot of time on what other people might think. Now this, from you: _Virgin males are losers_. For some reason what would be applicable and reasonable for the female gender will not work here, for reasons I have trouble understanding. And I’m probably not meant to, because this is directed toward men. Women generally do not shame virgins, rate people numerically, or spend nearly the amount of time that men do thinking about sex, and we fall short of societal expectations and cave under pressure all the time. We’re human. We tend to recognize and accept human failings and limitations in others – I thought everyone was supposed to. But I’m getting that some people can’t allow for that because Men! For that I am truly sorry. But I can’t in good conscience join in the rush to find these guys sex with actual people so they don’t kill us. I would give them nothing but suggestions to find better, more humane ways to value people, including themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/147 "2018-06-14T00:43:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There are 150 or so million males in the USA, over 3.5 billion around the world. ‘Several’ is down in the background noise. They are common criminals - no more, no less. I suspect several is much higher…and previously we lumped them in with uncommon criminals - serial killers. But nowadays we do things big, write a manifesto and post it on the internet before taking your gun to school and shooting the girl who turned you down as well as several other classmates. Nowadays, you can find other people to share your socially unacceptable hate and your fantasies about it on the internet. I suspect that incel killings is just a different form of rage against women externalizing into murder that has probably occurred throughout human history. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/148 "2018-06-14T04:39:00Z")
One thing I would like to mention - based on my foray into an incel forum- is that the men on that forum are specifying a few things: That they ARE entitled to a virgin for a _relationship_, not just sex, and not a relationship with someone who has already been with someone else - sex-only with a “roastiie” seems to be acceptable to some, but many disagree. Even with presented with the idea of escorts, \*it’s not good enough. \* Women - at least for some - are no more than property, and those who have had multiple partners , or get drunk - deserve nothing more than rape and/violence. Friendship with a woman is impossible and a woman who wants to be friends is an affront to masculinity People like Eliot Rodger and Alek Minassian are fucking \*heroes \*to these people. \*Date rape drugs are a good idea. I saw the idea that anyone not willing to use a roofie was not an Incel, but rather a Volcel (Voluntary celibate) espoused by multple posters. I am pointing this out because a lonely sad guy who stumbles into this ideology and thinks “I have found my people” may be irrevocably broken. Radicalization is probably a gradual process, but once they find a community like this and think “yes, I finally belong” I am not sure how much they can be helped. If you are alone and sad about that, that’s a bad thing, and I sympathize. If you are alone and feel that sexual violence makes sense, you may be beyond help. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/149 "2018-06-14T07:53:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Now, you might say ‘But there’s nothing wrong with male celibacy! I wouldn’t think even slightly less of a man due to his sexual inactivity.’ > > It’s my belief that incels, each and every one down to the last, would disagree. There’s a big difference between a man who _chooses_ to be celibate and one who would rather not be, but for whatever reason is celibate. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/150 "2018-06-14T09:02:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > 1. Legal prostitutes have standards. I’ve yet to hear about any system with legal prostitution where the women can’t refuse to service certain people (whether that’s evidence of STD’s or indications of violence) If prostitution was legalized, I wonder how it would accommodate situations like the baker in Colorado. If you believe that a baker should be forced to make a cake for any couple who wants one (or, at least, can’t be denied for certain protected reasons), should a prostitute be forced to have sex with anyone who can pay her fee (or, at least, she can’t turn them down for reasons of race, religion, sex, or orientation)? I suspect the answer would be no. I can understand the argument for legalizing prostitution, but turning it into a purely commercial transaction, and subjecting it to the laws which govern such things, would not be a simple thing. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/151 "2018-06-14T11:05:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I wouldn’t think even slightly less of a man due to his sexual inactivity.’ You do not but society in general does. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/152 "2018-06-14T13:25:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think what they are seeking is the perceived status that comes with a girlfriend. Girlfriend = “I am not a loser, even if that is how I may appear from the outside”. If you don’t have any brains or athletic ability, there isn’t that much left to hang your hat on besides your social/sexual prowess. > > Prostitutes don’t take away the stink of “loser”. Just like no one brags about having a psychotherapist instead of a BFF. Doing so would just conform to everyone they are indeed a loser Yes, this is certainly true. They want girlfriends so they can have sex and higher status and to not be lonely and to have someone to listen to them and to have the feeling of being like what they think is “normal”. Basically they want to not be angry losers who can’t get laid. And have chosen to pursue the easy course of blaming society/women/everyone but themselves for their predicament. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/153 "2018-06-14T14:23:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What is needed is a culture change so that teenage and young adult experiences with sex are discouraged rather than encouraged. I hope we can accomplish this. Not because I actually want it, but because it would be awesome to watch the first annual Hell Winter Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/154 "2018-06-14T14:38:53Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I hope we can accomplish this. Not because I actually want it, but because it would be awesome to watch the first annual Hell Winter Olympics. It would; from what I can tell the closest they’ve been so far are the 1936 games in Berlin, though Oslo in 1952 wasn’t much more distant. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/155 "2018-06-14T14:59:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > A message that most people shouldn’t be having sex as teenagers would help keep virgins from thinking of themselves as losers. No, this isn’t what we need. What we need is to extend the sexual message of the last half century, which is, what kind of consensual sex you’re having (or not having) is nobody else’s goddamned business. As for Virgin Shaming, I’d vaguely remembered in various Pit threads seeing “you’re a virgin” used by women to insult guys. But I went back to look at the “Skald is Creepy” thread for examples–and folks who say it’s generally coming from men, y’all are right! The only example there I found from a woman was: > [@](#): > > Jesus fucking Christ, between you [and two other posters] I’m starting to understand why Dopers have the reputation of being full of celibate/forever alone types. So it happens sometimes coming from women (in a form), but y’all are right, it does appear to be, even on these boards, something that’s mostly used by men to denigrate the masculinity of other men. My ignorance is fought. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/156 "2018-06-14T15:11:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > :rolleyes: \*Nobody \*brings up “but it’s biological” without the implied “and therefore somewhat out of their control” - which is a morality argument. The only problem with this is that it isn’t true. Identifying an urge as biological does not carry any necessary implication of a loss of control. Thus your argument is a strawman. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/157 "2018-06-14T15:28:51Z")
Oddly, both implication and inference are things that exist. . ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/158 "2018-06-14T15:33:07Z")
So does misinterpretation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/159 "2018-06-14T16:22:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, this isn’t what we need. What we need is to extend the sexual message of the last half century, which is, what kind of consensual sex you’re having (or not having) is nobody else’s goddamned business. > . I think lots of people–not just lonely young men–would benefit from less “pedestalization” of relationships. Sex doesn’t make the man (or woman) and neither does whether you have a girl or boyfriend. But it is hard to believe something like this when everywhere you turn, people are talking about relationship. I just read this blog piece [Feeling single sucks](https://eclecticdiscourse.wordpress.com/2016/10/10/feeling-single-sucks/). Being single can be great, but other people have a way of ruining that greatness with the comments they make. And not all of the comments are mean or “shaming”. Like, when I visit family, I have to brace myself for the inevitable “Have you met any nice guys yet?” This is a totally innocent question, but I dread it because of all the implicit messages behind it. Heaven forbid what I would hear if I was actually looking and repeatedly failing. It probably is unrealistic to expect people to avoid talking about relationships. But I know that it isn’t impossible to strike up conversations without bringing it up since I do it all the time. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002/160 "2018-06-14T16:30:05Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I think it’s not so specific as “an insult directed at men by women.” I talked about it a little upthread. I think we, on the internet especially, have developed a societally embraced archetype of “loser” that many of us trot out when we want to wound someone. That archetype includes someone being a socially inept person living in his mother’s basement who lacks sexual outlets and who therefore takes out his frustrations on women. I’m sure you’ve seen it on this board. Someone complaining about something, or being nasty, and others will say something like “You need to get laid” or “You’re just angry that no girl is willing to touch your junk” or “Spoken like a 30 year old virgin from his mom’s basement.” > > That isn’t an attack on the person for being a virgin or lacking sexual prowess. That’s an attack on the person by _calling him a virgin or claiming he lacks sexual prowess_. The insult is in saying the person is like those other people who are pathetic. It’s quite similar to using a homophobic insult against a stranger. It isn’t necessary that the target of the insult be gay. The insult itself shows the attitude of the speaker toward gayness. > > So a bystander to that who is a virgin is receiving the message that they are pathetic, just as a gay bystander to homophobic insults is receiving the message they they are pathetic. > > While I don’t think this is a root cause of Inceldom or anything, I think it is pernicious and reinforces the idea that men are impressive by virtue of sexual experience, not their characters. The problem in the case of incels (which does not generally exist in the case of gays) is that there’s a lot of truth to the insult, and the incels know it. In general, if you’re very motivated to do X, and have utterly failed to accomplish it, then you’re a loser by definition. Unfortunate (you might have been dealt a bad hand by life) but true. Incels know that they, along with 98% of the male population, want sex/intimacy, and that 97.99999% of the male population is more successful at getting it than they are (and 2% don’t care). The important point here - and I think this is something that many posters have missed - is not that “society has decided that celibate people are losers”. It’s that celibate people who want sex/intimacy are losers for failing to achieve their aims despite the vast majority of the population being successful at this same thing. You can’t change that. It’s not something which is specific to celibacy. There are other things in life that people want, and those who don’t achieve those are frequently thought of and think of themselves as losers too, and can turn violent as a result. [And it’s not comparable to a gay guy hearing a homophobic insult directed at someone else. That gay guy knows that some guy out there is a homophobe. The incel knows that he is a loser and is reminded of his status.] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incels-terrorism-and-preventative-measures/816002.md?page=9)