# Incendiary Pigs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650 "2004-10-05T15:16:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@pung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pung)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/1 "2004-10-05T15:16:18Z")
I’ve been playing a lot of Rome: Total War. [http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/589390.asp](http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/589390.asp) One of units in the game have intrigued me: Incendiary Pigs Their use in the game is to spook war elephants. The pigs are covered in tar, herded towards the enemy and lit on fire. Apparently elephants aren’t fond of flaming, shrieking swine. Anyway, on to the question: Do these things have any historical basis? Were they actually used in war by the Romans? My boss who is quite the historian has never heard of them. A quick Google search only led me to Rome: Total War game links. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/2 "2004-10-05T15:22:10Z")
> [@pung](#): > > The pigs are covered in tar, herded towards the enemy and lit on fire. Say it wasn’t so :eek: ! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/3 "2004-10-05T15:29:29Z")
> [@Freddy the Pig](#): > > Say it wasn’t so :eek: ! Mmmmm…_bacon…_ c’mere, **Freddy**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/4 "2004-10-05T17:16:33Z")
Well, in a slightly related vein… One of my characters in a role-playing game put nails in small kegs of gun powder, strapped them onto pigs, lit the fuses, and ran them at the enemy. I called them Kriegschwein. Now I thought of this all on my own (am I actually boasting about this? :smack: )and I only consider myself a person of average intelligence, so I don’t see why someone else back when couldn’t have thunk up the Flammendschwein. But actual historical data? Sorry, can’t help. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/5 "2004-10-05T17:26:34Z")
I’m conflicted on the incendiary pig thing. On the one hand, I love Roman military history and I’ve never heard of them (I knew about the dogs). On the other hand: 1. Incendiary pigs sound like something they would have done, given sufficient free time, pigs and flammable liquid. They had plenty of all three. 2. This game developer, while taking plenty of license with historical military units in the Total War series, is usually pretty good at not totally making things up. For example, in Medieval: Total War there was a rebel state to the east of the Black Sea that had Jewish Heavy Steppe Cavalry. I didn’t believe it until I researched it myself, and learned alot of neat history on the way…they had a whole country, apparently. 3. I’ve tried researching incendiary pigs and found nada. I was on the verge of emailing Creative Assembly to ask if it was true, but got sidetracked. Maybe someone else here knows, but that’s what I’ve got so far on the flaming pig front. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/6 "2004-10-05T17:34:58Z")
I’ll need to look this up when I’m at home and dig out an old textbook or two, but from my recollection, there is a passage in a history of the Punic Wars that describe incendiary pigs used as anti-elephant weaponry. I have a nagging suspicion that the controversy around the concept was whether the pigs were _herded_ towards the enemy lines or _catapulted_ towards the enemy lines. Being a fan of siege machinery at heart, I clung to the idea of pigs being loaded onto a trebuchet, set ablaze, and sent oinking through the air. Hopefully **Tamerlane** or **Kizarveci** … **Kiza** … **Kiz** can chime in in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/7 "2004-10-05T17:36:53Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I’ll need to look this up when I’m at home and dig out an old textbook or two, but from my recollection, there is a passage in a history of the Punic Wars that describe incendiary pigs used as anti-elephant weaponry. I have a nagging suspicion that the controversy around the concept was whether the pigs were _herded_ towards the enemy lines or _catapulted_ towards the enemy lines. > > Being a fan of siege machinery at heart, I clung to the idea of pigs being loaded onto a trebuchet, set ablaze, and sent oinking through the air. > > Hopefully **Tamerlane** or **Kizarveci** … **Kiza** … **Kiz** can chime in in the meantime. For some reason, my admittedly hazy recollection of what I’ve always thought of as “Flaming Pigs” involved them being launched through the air as well. I wish I had more to offer. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/8 "2004-10-05T17:39:40Z")
[Here we go.](http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/elephants-war-greek.htm) My emphasis in bold. > [@](#): > > The ancient sources are very clear in indicating that pigs were used to deter elephants in battle. Pliny writes “elephants are scared by the smallest squeal of a pig; and when wounded and frightened, they always give ground (VIII, 1.27).” Aelian says that “it was by these squealing pigs, they say, that the Romans turned to flight the elephants of Pyrrhus and won a glorious victory (1,38).” **The most frequently told tale concerning pigs as a counter weapon to elephants may be represented by Aelian and Polyaenus: when Antigonas Gonatas was besieging Megara, the Megarians succeeded in routing the besiegers’ elephants by dousing pigs in oil and igniting them and then turning them loose against the elephants.** One might object that this is hardly a fair test of the elephant’s reaction to pigs per se; but both authors specifically state that the beasts were startled by the squeal rather than by the fire. **The flames were simply a means of guaranteeing a satisfactory squeal.** As a final instance of the effect of pigs on elephants in battle, it is feasible to examine Procopius’ account of events at Edessa. The city was being besieged by Chosroes, and an elephant with many soldiers on its back was driven up to the city wall and towered over it. The resourceful inhabitants thrust a squealing pig over the wall and into the face of the looming elephant. The result was panic and retreat.[sup]19[/sup] Altogether the pig seems to have been quite an effective weapon against the elephant, although its use does not appear to have been widespread in the ancient world. The footnote in this case refers to David Bright and Barbara Bowen. “Emblems, Elephants and Alexander.” Studies in Philology, ed. Jerry Mills (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1983), pp. 19, 20. Apparently millenia ago, the phrase “squeal like a pig” had completely different connotations… ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/9 "2004-10-05T17:47:39Z")
How 'bout that. We should into that for the U.S. Army. Make one heck of a commercial. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/10 "2004-10-05T17:49:43Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Being a fan of siege machinery at heart, I clung to the idea of pigs being loaded onto a trebuchet, set ablaze, and sent oinking through the air. I guess all of those women who said they’d go out with me “when pigs fly” are in for a shock. RR ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/11 "2004-10-05T18:16:21Z")
And yes, “Catapulted Flaming Roman Pigs” would make a great band name. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/12 "2004-10-05T18:37:27Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I have a nagging suspicion that the controversy around the concept was whether the pigs were herded towards the enemy lines or catapulted towards the enemy lines. Yes, and later, the French proved that catapulted lowing cattle are effective in routing Grail-seeking English Kuh_niggets_! ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/13 "2004-10-05T18:39:31Z")
> [@pung](#): > > I’ve been playing a lot of Rome: Total War. [Video Game Reviews, Articles, Trailers and more - Metacritic](http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/589390.asp) > > One of units in the game have intrigued me: Incendiary Pigs > > Their use in the game is to spook war elephants. > The pigs are covered in tar, herded towards the enemy and lit on fire. Apparently elephants aren’t fond of flaming, shrieking swine. > > Anyway, on to the question: > Do these things have any historical basis? Were they actually used in war by the Romans? My boss who is quite the historian has never heard of them. > > A quick Google search only led me to Rome: Total War game links. While I \*do \*like my bacon well done… ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/14 "2004-10-05T19:56:50Z")
Yep, there is historical basis. IIRC, it’s the unfamiliar noise of the squealing that gets the heffalumps riled up rather than the flame per se. (I’d imagine that a mass of flaming hog bearing down on anybody would seriously undermine their resolve.) Again, IIRC, elephants were raised with pigs after their effectiveness was established, so that the elephants would be familiar with them and not get spooked. (Camel smell had similar effects on horses and the perscription was the same: Raise elephants with pigs! Okay, that was a joke. They raised horses with camels to get them familiar with the smell.) (From what I’ve read, elephants were notoriously poor weapons of war. Scipio Africanus turned many with blasts of horns and captured the rest by letting them run through openings in the lines and capturing their handlers. Elephants didn’t trust humans like horses do, and when an elephant is spooked and goes running through its own lines the damage can be considerable.) ---
**Author:** ![TwoTrouts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@TwoTrouts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoTrouts)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/15 "2004-10-05T20:14:36Z")
You can find more info on the incendiary pigs as weapons in the book \*Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient \* _World_. Very Interesting (and disturbing) stuff! [Link.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158567348X/qid=1097007195/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-5105523-5258543?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/16 "2004-10-06T00:48:17Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Now I thought of this all on my own (am I actually boasting about this? :smack: )and I only consider myself a person of average intelligence, so I don’t see why someone else back when couldn’t have thunk up the Flammendschwein. Oh, my darlin’ Oh, my darlin’ Oh, my daaaaaaarrlllliiiiiiin Flammendschwein. You are doused and then ignited, Oh, my darlin Flammendschwein. ---
**Author:** ![PigBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@PigBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigBoy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/17 "2004-10-06T03:04:27Z")
::Covers self with tar, lights self on fire, and hurls self at thread:: ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/18 "2004-10-06T03:27:38Z")
Of course, the counter-offensive for an mounted elephant brigade when faced with incendiary pigs is hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/19 "2004-10-06T05:02:27Z")
> [@PigBoy](#): > > ::Covers self with tar, lights self on fire, and hurls self at thread:: Heeeeey batter batter batter batter…HEEEEEY batter… ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650/20 "2004-10-06T05:27:30Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Being a fan of siege machinery at heart, I clung to the idea of pigs being loaded onto a trebuchet, set ablaze, and sent oinking through the air. Nitpick: The Romans didn’t have trebs. Onagers, mangonels, ballistae, yeah, but no trebs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incendiary-pigs/267650.md?page=2)