# (Incest) What was God Thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466 "2003-09-29T13:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/1 "2003-09-29T13:20:47Z")
In the Bible God commands Adam and Eve to multiply the earth. That would mean eventually there would be incest in order to multiply. Incest. (a) A person commits incest if he marries or engages in sexual intercourse with a person he knows to be, either legitimately or illegitimately: (1) His ancestor or descendant by blood or adoption; or (2) His brother or sister of the whole or half-blood or by adoption; or (3) His stepchild or stepparent, while the marriage creating the relationship exists; or (4) His aunt, uncle, nephew or niece of the whole or half-blood. What was God thinking? How could this have been acceptable? Leviticus 18 lists all forbidden sexual relationships. Cousin relationships are not included Wouldn’t being cousins fall under #1 by today’s guidelines? God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad’s 5 daughters, Eleazar’s daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ Today you can date your first cousin, but if you are considering marriage, laws vary by state and country. Twenty-four states legally forbid first cousins from marrying, and another seven require genetic counseling before legal union can take place. Did you know Albert Einstein married his first cousin. and so did Charles Darwin? Could the laws in biblical times be so different then the law of the land today? * * * Jesus loves you but I’m his favorite! ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/2 "2003-09-29T13:51:04Z")
Maybe God didn’t know about genetics yet? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/3 "2003-09-29T13:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > (a) A person commits incest if he marries or engages in sexual intercourse > with a person he knows to be, either legitimately or illegitimately: > (1) His ancestor or descendant by blood **or adoption** ; or > (2) His brother or sister of the whole or half-blood **or by adoption** ; or > (3) His stepchild or stepparent, **while the marriage creating the > relationship exists**; or > (4) His aunt, uncle, nephew or niece of the whole or half-blood. Why all the “adoption” stuff? I know that the situation would be socially awkward, but I don’t really think that sexual relations with someone only related to you by adoption should count as incest. > [@](#): > > **Could the laws in biblical times be so different then the law of the land > today?** All you have to do is read Leviticus to answer that one. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/4 "2003-09-29T14:40:36Z")
If God doesn’t want me to commit Incest, then why did he make my sister so hot? Seriously, while Seth, Cain et al. must have committed incest, this doesn’t make a biblical injunction against incest invalid. The rules were simply different back then. Many mythologies forbid incest in one verse, and then describe their Gods performing it. When deities or men (or even a special family of men) descend from a common source, its hard to avoid. Do cousins count as incest? The Bible says no. Modern American opinion says yes. It should not be surprising that the two differ, as the boundaries of incest are subjective. Do cousins count? Second cousins? Adopted siblings? Your uncle’s wife’s adopted daughter from a previous marriage? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/5 "2003-09-29T14:56:54Z")
(a) Depending on your school of “orthodox” Biblical interpretations, the various penal/social/ritual laws of Leviticus did NOT all apply before being revealed, or may not have applied at all. (b) IIRC, the terminology specifically used in the Torah (and I’ll appreciate any of our Dopers more learned in the matter to jump in here) points to that certain fo these marriage/mating practices were “exceptional grants” from God. © “Incest” is a _legal_ term, dependent on the code of your particular jurisdiction: used to be defined on the basis of whether the people involved were barred from marriage because of blood or in-law relationship, and it was later that it was defined independently of marriage laws. However, _sociologically_, which is the basis for the law, “incest” refers to a sexual union where one of the persons is seen as/felt to be/legally considered a subordinate part _of the same basic family unit_ as the other… (d)…which is why the “adoption” language. Laws _in general_ – civil and criminal – have been amended over the 20th Century in most of the world to clarify that adoption makes you 100% just as much family as bloodline (or you’d risk having entire categories of second-class relative becoming “fair game” to get the short end of the stick). The historical basis for the law against incest is _NOT_ genetic effects – though in the past, those would have likely been seen as God’s wrath – but _damage to family integrity_. (e) Unions between cousins do NOT fulfill condition #1. Cousins are neither your ancestors nor your descendants, they are collateral relatives. The definition you quote is summed as “ancestors, descendants, and other relatives up to the third degree”. First cousins are of the fourth degree of consanguinity. (How you calculate steps: add the generations between each and the last common ancestor.) (f) In the particular case of the ancient Israelites, cousins were OK. Endogamous unions were even encouraged. (there have been earlier threads in which we’ve discussed whether generalized squickiness about cousin-cousin unions is more a phenomenon of the development of urban society than something deeply ancestral) (g) Do a search for the “Book of Jubillees”, an Apocryphal/Pseudoepigraphical companion to Genesis that is still used by the Ethiopian churches: it is absolutely frank about how the children and grandchildren of Adam would have carried on… ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/6 "2003-09-29T15:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Do cousins count as incest? The Bible says no. Modern American opinion says yes.** I believe marriage between first cousins is legal in something like 10 states. > [@](#): > > The couple are not close blood relatives. > Close blood relatives cannot marry, although in some states, first cousins can marry. Of the states that allow first cousins to marry, a few also require that one of the cousins no longer be able to conceive children. From [http://usmarriagelaws.com/](http://usmarriagelaws.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/7 "2003-09-29T15:02:49Z")
All of the first-generation siblings married each other in order to populate the earth. At that time there was no law against incest. But as the population grew large enough, and as the risk of genetic problems increased because of sin’s curse, God outlawed marriage between siblings. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/8 "2003-09-29T15:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > \*\*In the Bible God commands Adam and Eve to multiply the earth. That would > mean eventually there would be incest in order to multiply. > \*\* The story of Adam and Eve isn’t where the incest in the bible is, though. People _say_ we all came from Adam and Eve, but this can’t be true, even if we believe that God created Adam and Eve. Let’s think about Genesis. Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able, right? And once Able is killed: > [@](#): > > Genesis 4:25 " And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. " Only then do they have the third child, right? No other children of theirs are mentioned between Cain and Able and Seth. However, if you go back to the conversation between Cain and God about his punishment this is said: > [@](#): > > Genesis 4:12: When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. > > 4:13: And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. > > 4:14: Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that **every one** that findeth me shall slay me. > 4:15: And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Which means there are _already_ other people besides him and his parents. Otherwise, who would be finding him and slaying him? Who would the mark protect him against? The question then becomes, where were the other people? We find out quickly. > [@](#): > > Genesis 4:16: And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. > > 4:17: And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. God may have created Adam and Eve _first_, but it’s obvious that he did not create them only. Now, if you really wanted to talk about God condoning incest, there’s a better story for that…even more twisted than marrying your cousin! ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/9 "2003-09-29T15:31:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JRDelirious \* > \*\*“Incest” is a legal term, dependent on the code of your particular jurisdiction: used to be defined on the basis of whether the people involved were barred from marriage because of blood or in-law relationship, and it was later that it was defined independently of marriage laws. > \*\* When King Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon, he used the reasoning that his marriage to her was incestuous because she had been married to his brother, making her, in a way, his “sister.” Before he married Anne Boleyn, he requested a dispensation from the Pope, because he had slept with her sister Mary. The sexual union with Mary made Anne Henry’s “sister.” When it came to royalty, the incest laws were very lax indeed. There are many examples of cousin marriage, as well as niece-uncle marriages, and, in the case of the ancient Egyptians, brother-sister marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/10 "2003-09-29T15:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*Only then do they have the third child, right? No other children of theirs are mentioned between Cain and Able and Seth. > \*\* Well, but that doesn’t mean that there weren’t other children…only that they weren’t thematically important. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/11 "2003-09-29T16:12:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Well, but that doesn’t mean that there weren’t other children…only that they weren’t thematically important. \*\* Given how many people in that book are only mentioned as being “begetted” (or is it begotten?) don’t you think they would have at least been named? They couldn’t be any less thematically important than the others who are only named… ---
**Author:** ![Starrman10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Starrman10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starrman10)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/12 "2003-09-29T16:37:19Z")
Maybe it was just a story - written by imperfect human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/13 "2003-09-29T16:51:25Z")
Or maybe Genesis 5:4 mentions something different. Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/14 "2003-09-29T17:14:33Z")
Ok I don’t have my facts down on this thought so don’t flame me! But just thinking out loud… Don’t we have to forget Adam and Eve and go to the story of Noah and see that only 8 people survived the entire planet?Which would mean we were desendants of Noah and his family? (sure still indirectly Adam and Eve) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/15 "2003-09-29T17:38:07Z")
Lot’s daughters ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/16 "2003-09-29T17:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*Now, if you really wanted to talk about God condoning incest, there’s a better story for that…even more twisted than marrying your cousin! \*\* This one, perhaps? > [@](#): > > And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and > his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: > and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. > > 019:031 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, > and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after > the manner of all the earth: > > 019:032 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with > him, that we may preserve seed of our father. > > 019:033 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the > firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived > not when she lay down, nor when she arose. > > 019:034 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said > unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: > let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, > and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. > > 019:035 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the > younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she > lay down, nor when she arose. > > 019:036 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their > father. > > 019:037 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the > same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. > > 019:038 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name > Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto > this day. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/17 "2003-09-29T18:26:18Z")
Now let me ask a gross question, why is incest wrong? Now don’t get me wrong, I know why I believe it to be so, and I am in no way promoting it, but I’m curious as to why it’s against the law…and yes, I am going somewhere with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/18 "2003-09-29T19:10:11Z")
Why is it against the law? Because our ancestors believed in a strict moral code that some things were absolutely wrong and should be punished: like miscegenation, birth control, and shopping on Sunday. As to what makes incest wrong, I think it’s a case of one of those things that might not be absolutely invariably wrong, but is so easy to abuse that one’s very motives for wanting to do it have to be suspect. Sort of like asking, “couldn’t people use heroin as a recreational drug if they just didn’t abuse it?” Probably our mixed feelings about incest come from our evolutionary past where: 1.It’s preferable to have children by anyone other than a close relative; 2. But rather than die childless, it’s preferable to mate with a relative. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/19 "2003-09-29T19:14:05Z")
Isabelle said, “What was God thinking? How could this have been acceptable?” Hey, the whole god thing is YOUR fantasy. If he screwed up, it’s your fault! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466/20 "2003-09-29T19:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*They couldn’t be any less thematically important than the others who are only named… \*\* Most of the people who are only named are eponymous ancestors of tribes and groups the ancient Israelites would have had contact with, so their naming has a purpose. It fits these tribes into the world, and suggests ties between them and Israel. So, for example, an Israelite knows that an Amorite is his enemy, because the Amorites are descended from Canaan, who was cursed by Noah to be a servant of the descendents of Shem, and he knows that the other sons of Ham, like the Egyptians and the Assyrians are his enemies. So they’re not just names. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incest-what-was-god-thinking/204466.md?page=2)