# Inching forward at traffic lights **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 28, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983 "2008-12-28T18:31:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/41 "2008-12-29T00:26:13Z")
I am occasionally the guy inching forward at a light, even if I’m not the first in line. The reason is radio reception. Sometimes there’s interference from god-knows-what, and if you inch forward a little, or a little more, you can get it to clear up. As far as turning left is concerned: as others have said, you pull into the intersection, to the point where you would start to turn. You sit there until there’s a break in traffic. If there is not break you wait for the light to change, when oncoming traffic has stopped, then you immediately turn. You are not yet in the way of any cross-traffic (but keep an eye out for pedestrians). I have not encountered any state where this is illegal, and I have not encountered any circumstance in which it doesn’t make sense. Now let’s try to get people to use a central turning lane correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/42 "2008-12-29T00:34:45Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I have not encountered any state where this is illegal… Well, except California (at least), assuming my cite is still accurate today. But, then, Californians is weird. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/43 "2008-12-29T00:38:07Z")
I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to turn left on red in every state. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/44 "2008-12-29T00:43:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to turn left on red in every state. Except in this case the turn was started on a green light by pulling into the intersection. That’s the point–sometimes traffic is too heavy to get through the turn unless you start before you see a break in the flow. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/45 "2008-12-29T00:48:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to turn left on red in every state. Ummm, yeah. Except did you read my cite which said: > [@](#): > > **In some states it is legal to enter an intersection in order to make a left turn and then wait in the intersection until there is a gap in the traffic in the opposite direction, or the traffic lights change to red and stop the traffic in the opposite direction** … Either you didn’t read it, or you did read it but didn’t understand it. So, I’ve extracted the salient part and bolded it so you can’t miss it. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/46 "2008-12-29T01:22:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to turn left on red in every state. This may not be the type of “left on red” you were referring to, but who knows. [Left on red onto a one-way street is legal in 42 states and much of Canada, under the right conditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red). ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/47 "2008-12-29T01:33:41Z")
One other reason that I sometimes inch forward at an intersection is that sometimes my radio reception is no good, and if I go forward a teeny bit, it improves. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/48 "2008-12-29T01:43:10Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > One other reason that I sometimes inch forward at an intersection is that sometimes my radio reception is no good, and if I go forward a teeny bit, it improves. Whooo! Standing waves! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/49 "2008-12-29T01:50:49Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > One other reason that I sometimes inch forward at an intersection is that sometimes my radio reception is no good, and if I go forward a teeny bit, it improves. Have you tried a tinfoil hat? An orange on the antenna? Praying to the radio gods? > [@Q.E.D.](#): > > The sensitivity of the detector loops is adjustable… The most sensitive part of the loop is directly over it; for double loops, the central line where both loops pass is the sweet spot. if that doesn’t work, laying your bike down directly on top of the sensor increases the metal mass close to the sensor and can help trigger it. That’s what I thought, but my entreaties to the sheriff and the State Dept. of Transportation resulted in only a statement that if they allowed bicycles to trigger the sensor, every damn deer within a mile would too. Apparently, preventing deer from crossing is more important than allowing motorcycles to. However, I haven’t tried putting my bike down on the pavement in a horizontal position yet. I’ll feel pretty silly next summer if that doesn’t work and I’ll direct all laughter to your email. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/50 "2008-12-29T02:26:41Z")
Well, you’re already wearing Spandex shorts and a plastic colander on your head. You should be used to feeling silly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/51 "2008-12-29T03:13:57Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Have you tried a tinfoil hat? An orange on the antenna? Praying to the radio gods? _shrug_ Hey, it works. I drive an older van, and the radio isn’t much good. Perhaps if I had a nicer car it wouldn’t do that, I don’t know. But my radio reception goes in and out, and if I move a bit it changes. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/52 "2008-12-29T03:15:50Z")
I see a variation on this. People sometimes stop waaaaay short of where they should, allowing 2-3 car lengths between them and the car in front. These people seem to intend to come to a full stop that far back, and there they stay. At first. Then, once everyone has filled in behind them, they roll forward a car length or so and stop again. Laboriously, everyone else puts there cars back into drive and rolls forward. Then this person does it again, closing up the last of the space. Once again, everyone either rolls forward instead of adjusting the radio or whatever they’ve been waiting for a red light to tackle. Or they stay put and let a stupid-looking gap open in front of them. I don’t understand why people do this. ---
**Author:** ![Alienhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/53 "2008-12-29T03:20:05Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Well, you’re already wearing Spandex shorts and a plastic colander on your head. You should be used to feeling silly. 😉 You forgot the camelback. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/54 "2008-12-29T04:13:42Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Well, you’re already wearing Spandex shorts and a plastic colander on your head. You should be used to feeling silly. 😉 _Spandex??!!_ :eek: Someday, \*\*Q.E.D., \*\*we must meet in person. I’m far from _that_ kind of {shudder} “biker”. To me, a “bike” is closer to a [Harley.](http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2006models/2006-Harley-Davidson-FXSTISoftailStandardb-small.jpg) {cue worshipful angel chorus} > [@dangermom](#): > > But my radio reception goes in and out, and if I move a bit it changes. Then you should be ecstatic about this newfangled invention called a “CD player”. It fits in the car dash! Amazing! No fadeouts in tunnels! Better than an 8-track! A 4-track even! A 2-track?! ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/55 "2008-12-29T04:37:56Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > People do that around here when in turn lanes because there are weight [sensors](http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question234.htm) in the ground (though far from universally) that let the light know if there is traffic waiting to turn - which is only really important at night when there isn’t much turning traffic. It is not a weight sensor. It is an electrical inductance sensor. ---
**Author:** ![Satellite\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Satellite\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satellite_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/56 "2008-12-29T04:43:26Z")
On the subject of the left-turn debate, the way I understood it (and I’m canadian, too) is that if your front wheels are in front of the stop line while the light is green, you are legally involved\* in the intersection, whereupon if the light turns amber then red while you are there, you have right of way to get your ass out of there before cross traffic starts. S^G \*I know there’s a better word for this, but can’t or the life of me think what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/57 "2008-12-29T04:56:24Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > It is not a weight sensor. It is an electrical inductance sensor. There used to be weight sensors for this purpose. Heck, for all I know there could still be some in operation at some remote intersection someplace. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/58 "2008-12-29T05:11:17Z")
> [@Satellite\_Guy](#): > > On the subject of the left-turn debate, the way I understood it (and I’m canadian, too) is that if your front wheels are in front of the stop line while the light is green, you are legally involved\* in the intersection, whereupon if the light turns amber then red while you are there, you have right of way to get your ass out of there before cross traffic starts. > > S^G > \*I know there’s a better word for this, but can’t or the life of me think what it is. My driver’s ed instructor called it legally establishing yourself in the intersection. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/59 "2008-12-29T05:14:49Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > On the other hand the California Driver Handbook 2002 (external link verified Jul-02) says: “Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless you can get completely across before the light turns red. If you block the intersection, you can be cited.” (Laws And Rules Of The Road - Traffic Control At Intersections; checked Jul-02). > > So, there you have it. Often you can; sometimes you can’t. I think it’s actually allowed in most states, but I’m not going to search through all 50 states’ traffic codes. > [@Q.E.D](#): > > Well, except California (at least), assuming my cite is still accurate today. But, then, Californians is weird. I am fairly sure that your cite has their Driver’s Handbook cite mixed up. The section they quote is very similar to NYC [Don’t block the box](http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/dont_block_the_box/) campaign from the 1980s. You do not enter an intersection unless you can clear the other side. It does not matter if you are going straight or turning, you do not enter the intersection if when the light changes you are stuck in the middle with no place to go, you can be cited for causing gridlock. Looking at the 2008 California Driver’s handbook they are fairly silent on the subject, but I did find this passage that addresses the subject of a left turn > [@](#): > > When you turn left, give the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching you that are close enough to be dangerous. Also, look for motorcyclists, bicyclists, and pedestrians. On divided highways, or highways with several lanes, watch for > vehicles coming in any lane you must cross, only turn left when it is safe. So reading these cites what I come up with (along with many many years of making left turns in California) is that assuming the roadway you are turning left onto is NOT backed up, and stopped, and if you were to turn left, you would be able to clear the intersection, it is legal to pull into the intersection to wait for either a break in traffic, or the light to turn. At that point the left turner must clear the intersection as soon as it is safe to do so. However on left turns the California DH has this to say: > [@](#): > > Left turns. To make a left turn, drive close to the center divider line or into the left turn lane. Begin signaling about 100 feet before the turn. Look over your left shoulder and reduce your speed. Stop behind the limit line. Look left, then right, then left again and make the turn when it is safe. Which might make you think that you are not allowed into an intersection to turn left without stopping, however the picture that accompanies the sections shows a stop sign, which explains the stop first comment. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983/60 "2008-12-29T05:17:53Z")
Add Alberta to the list of places where if you waited behind the stop line to make your left turns, you’d wait a very, very long time. You roll in on the green, you wait for your break, and you clear the intersection after people have stopped running the amber and fresh red. I’ve done this often enough around police cars to be fairly sure that it’s legal here. Maybe the idiots who get hung up in the intersection and block all the traffic learned to drive at the same place you did, **Diogenes**. Oh yeah, inching forward - I also don’t know why people do this (I think it is the impatience thing, too), but as a stick driver, it pisses me right off. I’m not de-clutching and rolling my car forward two inches repeatedly throughout the light; I might not even have the car in gear if it’s a long light. I come off the clutch when it’s time to move, and not a second before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inching-forward-at-traffic-lights/478983.md?page=4)