# Incident in Miami: Do air marshals trust the baggage security? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949 "2005-12-09T21:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/1 "2005-12-09T21:55:04Z")
Two days ago (on Dec. 7), air marshals in Miami shot and killed a passenger who (apparently) claimed to have a bomb in his bag. There was no bomb. The fact that the marshals seemed to be rather quick to believe him might indicate that they don’t trust the airport gate security much, no? I do think they probably did the right thing in shooting the man, and I know that no security system is 100% secure. My question is simply: do you think that this incident indicates that air marshals, who likely know more than most about these things, have little confidence that bag security has improved much sunce 9/11? If they are right, shouldn;t we all be worried about this? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/2 "2005-12-09T22:35:12Z")
I think they just trust the fact that a guy acting like a loon claimed he had a bomb. Who is the ultimate expert on whats in their own baggage? Bombs wouldn’t have to come through baggage screening. There is stuff being moved in and out or airports all the time. It can’t be locked down 100% tight. I think baggage screening would be the hardest place to get one through. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/3 "2005-12-09T23:01:37Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think they just trust the fact that a guy acting like a loon claimed he had a bomb. Who is the ultimate expert on whats in their own baggage? > > Bombs wouldn’t have to come through baggage screening. There is stuff being moved in and out or airports all the time. It can’t be locked down 100% tight. I think baggage screening would be the hardest place to get one through. Maybe the hardest place, but it’s not impossible that screeners will make mistakes now and then. The marshalls have to decide on limited information and in limited time what the response should be. This might very well be a case of slightly overhasty action. The cure for that is to carefully investigate the circumstances and if need be alter the training syllabus. However, as long as their are armed agents with the means and the authority to shoot if they deem it necessary under the circumstances as they perceive them, there will be an occasional shooting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/4 "2005-12-09T23:11:08Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Two days ago (on Dec. 7), air marshals in Miami shot and killed a passenger who (apparently) claimed to have a bomb in his bag. There was no bomb. It was just one air marshal. > [@](#): > > The fact that the marshals seemed to be rather quick to believe him might indicate that they don’t trust the airport gate security much, no? I do think they probably did the right thing in shooting the man, and I know that no security system is 100% secure. > > My question is simply: do you think that this incident indicates that air marshals, who likely know more than most about these things, have little confidence that bag security has improved much sunce 9/11? If they are right, shouldn;t we all be worried about this? One shooting in over 4 years? I don’t think this is indicative of anything. As you say, no screening system is 100% effective. If it were, there wouldn’t be much need for the marshals in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/5 "2005-12-09T23:18:14Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The fact that the marshals seemed to be rather quick to believe him might indicate that they don’t trust the airport gate security much, no? I think you’re looking at this the wrong way; I think you should be asking if the marshal could afford to **not believe him**. It’s an important difference. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/6 "2005-12-09T23:18:31Z")
I am very critical of police agencies using deadly force, but I do understand the constraints of making a life or death decision within seconds. With all the possible thoughts going through the minds of these two air marshalls they obviously had to rely on their training and act to protect the greatest number of people. How critical would they be judged if they had hesitated and the subject had detonated an explosive, killing dozens? I strongly disagree w/ many of the shootings by police that occur in the U.S., but I’m convinced that the air marshalls were fully justified in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/7 "2005-12-10T00:25:31Z")
The flight did not originate in the US, but in Columbia, so the question should be should an air marshall trust the Columbian baggage security. The answer to that one should be obvious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/8 "2005-12-10T00:46:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The flight did not originate in the US, but in Columbia, so the question should be should an air marshall trust the Columbian baggage security. > > The answer to that one should be obvious. Not really. The fight did originate in Columbia, but, as is required in the US, all the passengers had disembarked, been thru customs, and been rescreened before bording this particular plane, which was departing from Miami. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/9 "2005-12-10T01:29:43Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Not really. The fight did originate in Columbia, but, as is required in the US, all the passengers had disembarked, been thru customs, and been rescreened before bording this particular plane, which was departing from Miami. Did not know that. Nonetheless, it would increase the level of suspicion. Enough reporters and TSA inspectors have snuck stuff through so that I can understand a sky marshall not trusting it when a claim of a bomb was made. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/10 "2005-12-10T04:26:37Z")
The original op question is inside the box. Not everything on the aircraft is screened through the passenger line. His wife said she ran after him claiming he was bi-polar and wasn’t on his meds. Yah, that was a reasuring thing to say to the Marshals. Note to spouses of crazy people. Get them to take their medication before flying the friendly skies. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/11 "2005-12-10T07:43:06Z")
Is it possible the Air Marshall was lying? > [@](#): > > [**Passengers: Alpizar Didn’t Say 'Bomb’**](http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/09/ap2381208.html) > …Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane’s aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities. > > …Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone. > > McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back. > > “I heard him saying to his wife, ‘I’ve got to get off the plane,’” McAlhany said. “He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane.” > > Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said. > > McAlhany said he “absolutely never heard the word ‘bomb’ at all.” > > “The first time I heard the word ‘bomb’ was when I was interviewed by the FBI,” McAlhany said. “They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, ‘What is the B-word?’ And they were like, ‘Bomb.’ I said no. They said, ‘Are you sure?’ And I am.” > > Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: “I did not hear him say that he had a bomb.” As far as I know, the only people who say that Alpizar was making terrorist threats were the marshalls – which leads me to wonder if the “bomb threat” was a story created after-the-fact to justify the shooting. And besides, if the guy _did_ have a bomb on him, would shooting him – and risking a detonation – be such a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/12 "2005-12-10T08:14:43Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And besides, if the guy _did_ have a bomb on him, would shooting him – and risking a detonation – be such a good idea? The risk of [detonating a bomb by shooting it](http://www.slate.com/id/2131896/) varies a good deal depending on the type of bomb it is. At any rate, they weren’t shooting at the guy’s backpack, they were shooting at him. Now, if the marshals did in fact lie about Mr. Alpizar having said he had a bomb, that would be a very serious matter, but if he really did say he had a bomb, then I would say the shooting was tragic but justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/13 "2005-12-10T08:41:30Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > At any rate, they weren’t shooting at the guy’s backpack, they were shooting at him. And they knew he wasn’t wearing an explosive belt or explosive vest how? > [@MEBuckner](#): > > Now, if the marshals did in fact lie about Mr. Alpizar having said he had a bomb, that would be a very serious matter, but if he really did say he had a bomb, then I would say the shooting was tragic but justifiable. I’m still looking for a third-party witness who will say that Mr. Alpizar did make a bomb threat. All I get so far are folks like [this guy:](http://www.wftv.com/news/5503137/detail.html) > [@](#): > > [Jorge Borelli] had a great view of the air marshal on the aisle, nine rows back. > “He appeared very agitated and very nervous. He was obviously one of the air marshal’s that shot the gentleman,” Borelli said. > > The Winter Park architect, whose profession requires attention to detail, doesn’t like how some have taken liberty with what really happened on board Flight 924. > > “I want the truth to be known and it frustrates me to read that he was running down the plane, flailing and screaming that he had a bomb. That is not the case,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/14 "2005-12-10T08:48:12Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And they knew he wasn’t wearing an explosive belt or explosive vest how? They didn’t, which makes it a pretty bad situation for them to be in–shoot the mad bomber and you might set off his explosive-filled vest; fail to shoot him, and _he_ sets off his explosive-filled vest. They may have shot him in the head, I don’t know (and I’m sure that’s not an easy thing to pull off). On the other hand, and _if_ the claim that he had made some statement about having a bomb is true, he was reaching into his backpack, so that would have been the most logical place to suppose the “bomb” he (allegedly) referred to was located. A lot of decisions to be made in a very short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/15 "2005-12-10T13:42:16Z")
It could have been that he was running and screaming, and didn’t say anything about the bomb until he saw air marshals. I’ve known many crazed people, and been one myself on occasion, and it’s reasonably logical that once pressured, the person ups the ante with a train-of-thought threat. “Want to get off, I’m on an airplane… I’ll say I have a bomb!” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/16 "2005-12-10T15:14:26Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > They didn’t, which makes it a pretty bad situation for them to be in–shoot the mad bomber and you might set off his explosive-filled vest; fail to shoot him, and _he_ sets off his explosive-filled vest. They may have shot him in the head, I don’t know (and I’m sure that’s not an easy thing to pull off). On the other hand, and _if_ the claim that he had made some statement about having a bomb is true, he was reaching into his backpack, so that would have been the most logical place to suppose the “bomb” he (allegedly) referred to was located. A lot of decisions to be made in a very short period of time. The first accounts were that the man was shot when he was seeming to _reach into the bag_. > [@Magiver](#): > > His wife said she ran after him claiming he was bi-polar and wasn’t on his meds. Yah, that was a reasuring thing to say to the Marshals. Note to spouses of crazy people. Get them to take their medication before flying the friendly skies. The marshalls can’t pay any attention to a third party’s explanatory claims because they might be an accomplice trying to buy time. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/17 "2005-12-14T20:23:04Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It could have been that he was running and screaming, and didn’t say anything about the bomb until he saw air marshals. I’ve known many crazed people, and been one myself on occasion, and it’s reasonably logical that once pressured, the person ups the ante with a train-of-thought threat. “Want to get off, I’m on an airplane… I’ll say I have a bomb!” An excellent point, **E-Sabbath**. It is troubling that so few - if any - of the passengers heard Alpizar say he had a bomb, but it’s possible that he only blurted it out once he was on the jetway, confronted by the air marshals. Tragic though this incident is, from the info we have now, I have to say that it looks to me like a “good shoot.” ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/18 "2005-12-14T20:35:38Z")
If we’re wondering how effective baggage security is, I’m also wondering how many bombs have gotten onto airplanes and didn’t get set off? We’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/incident-in-miami-do-air-marshals-trust-the-baggage-security/334949/19 "2005-12-14T22:41:21Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The first accounts were that the man was shot when he was seeming to _reach into the bag_. > > The marshalls can’t pay any attention to a third party’s explanatory claims because they might be an accomplice trying to buy time. I think you missed what I was trying to convey. Yelling out to the marshals that your spouse has not taken his medication implies that he is mentally unstable. That will color their perception in a negative way. I agree that the spouse will be ignored for any attempts to dissuade them from shooting.