# Inclusive Language Guide **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 7, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074 "2021-10-07T14:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/21 "2021-10-07T20:47:45Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Note: icon and doppelganger are also cultural appropriation. Patronus is a trademark. They also don’t mean anything remotely similar to the concept of a “spirit animal” or “spirit guide.” “The shark is my spirit animal,” is a lot of things, including more than a little douchey, but “The shark is my doppelganger,” is incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/22 "2021-10-07T20:51:42Z")
It’s like they have no clue what a doppelganger is. That is pretty terrible when writing a language guide. ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/23 "2021-10-07T21:21:40Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Was such a test ever actually in use? I’ve seen it referred to by people pointing out discrimination, but it always looked like sarcasm to me. And in practice, a lot of people whose skin is lighter than such bags got identified as Black, and discriminated against on that basis. I’m not sure if such a test was actually used. I’m only going on what I read via Googling. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/24 "2021-10-07T21:24:24Z")
As others have noted, it appears to be a mix of completely sensible proscriptions that are already well entrenched in the language (“oriental” applied to a person is about as dated as “Chinaman”) and comically inappropriate ones. “Brown bag”, for instance, refers to the ubiquitous brown paper bag and nothing else; it is not in any way “rooted in racism”. Likewise “blacklist”, whose first recorded use was in an early history of religion published in 1624, _The true peace-maker: laid forth in a sermon before his Majesty at Theobalds_ by Thomas Hall, containing the sentence “_Ye secret oppressors,…ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this blacke list of wickednesse_.” “Black” here refers to rejection or disapproval, the same sense as in “blackball” which dates back even earlier and is a literal reference to a method of casting a “no” vote. The “master bedroom” terminology is perhaps a bit more nuanced. We had a whole thread about it (which in fact I think I started) and my personal view is that trying to “reform” this usage is stupid and pointless, it being no more “racist” than terms like “master key” or “master craftsman”. Likewise the terms “tribe” and “tribal”; while the association with indigenous societies is indisputable, categorizing it as an unacceptable or offensive form of “racial appropriation” is quite the stretch. In short, I think the Inclusive Language Guide is a mix of things we’re already doing and things that we’re not doing because they would be stupid, which makes it pretty useless. Sadly it wouldn’t surprise me if some of the suggestions did catch on, because sometimes our efforts to be inclusive or non-offensive can be over the top. But I admit I tend to be resistant to language changes, especially artificially mandated ones. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/25 "2021-10-07T21:38:29Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > We had a whole thread about it (which in fact I think I started) and my personal view is that trying to “reform” this usage is stupid and pointless, it being no more “racist” than terms like “master key” or “master craftsman”. I hadn’t watched a ton of HGTV in the last year or so, then, I started watching more again in the last several weeks. I was actually surprised that I didn’t hear “master bedroom” once; it was all “primary bedroom.” So, it appears the change is happening any way. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/26 "2021-10-07T21:41:05Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > I was actually surprised that I didn’t hear “master bedroom” once; it was all “primary bedroom.” So, it appears the change is happening any way. Yes, I had originally started the thread thinking this was the work of some local politically correct do-gooder, but it turns out the local real estate community was just caving to a wider trend. I still think it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/27 "2021-10-07T21:49:34Z")
I think the word “primary” is too reminiscent of the [primates of the Christian patriarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate_(bishop)). Likewise, those red birds shouldn’t be called [cardinals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_(Catholic_Church)), because they aren’t actually oppressors. /poe ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/28 "2021-10-07T22:17:33Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Instead of:** Indian > **Try:** This term should only be used in reference to people from India. > For those descending from the original peoples of a given land, use Indigenous person or the appropriate regionally-specific name. For example, Aboriginal, Native American, American Indian, First Nation, Alaska Native, etc. > When no umbrella term exists or more specificity is required, it’s best to use ethnic or tribal names such as: the Xavante People of Brazil or the Manobo tribe of Southern Philippines. > **Why:** Misnomer While I prefer to use “Indian” exclusively for people (or things) from India, and to refer to “Native American” or (preferably) specific tribes, this one is complicated by the fact that many Native American groups actually prefer “Indian”. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Instead of:** Tribe > **Try:** Family, friends, or group > **Why:** Cultural appropriation “Tribe” is an English word, not a word from any of the languages of “tribal people”. And the primary meaning of that English word is “family or group”. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Instead of:** Ninja > **Try:** Expert, warrior, or whiz > **Why:** Cultural appropriation The only culture that ninjas appropriate from is the culture of the entertainment industry. Real, historical ninja didn’t wear black pajamas, didn’t wield swords, and didn’t resemble the dramatized version of themselves in much of any way. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/29 "2021-10-07T22:26:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Likewise “blacklist”, whose first recorded use was in an early history of religion published in 1624, _The true peace-maker: laid forth in a sermon before his Majesty at Theobalds_ by Thomas Hall, containing the sentence “ _Ye secret oppressors,…ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this blacke list of wickednesse_ .” “Black” here refers to rejection or disapproval, the same sense as in “blackball” which dates back even earlier and is a literal reference to a method of casting a “no” vote. I doubt anybody’s questioning that. The problem is, does using “black” to indicate disapproval tie into the centuries of social disapproval of Black people? Did Europeans decide to enslave Black people (prior, in fact, to 1624) in part because they tied the color of their skin, mentally, to all the uses of “blackball”, “blacklist”, “black as sin”, and so on? It isn’t only the origin that matters – the origin of “black” for “unpleasant/sinful/disapproved” very likely has to do with people being afraid of the dark. But usage and behavior influence each other in complicated and poorly-understood ways. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I think the Inclusive Language Guide is a mix of things we’re already doing and things that we’re not doing because they would be stupid Who gets to decide what’s “stupid”? > [@wolfpup](#): > > sometimes our efforts to be inclusive or non-offensive can be over the top. True. Are we better over the top or under it in this area, though? > [@wolfpup](#): > > I admit I tend to be resistant to language changes, especially artificially mandated ones. Mandated? Who by? Language changes, all the time. If it didn’t we wouldn’t be speaking anything remotely resembling the language we’re speaking now. Nor would have been the Elizabethans, or anybody else. And how else did we get your > [@wolfpup](#): > > mix of completely sensible proscriptions that are already well entrenched in the language (“oriental” applied to a person is about as dated as “Chinaman”) other than by the language changing to proscribe them? I’m opposed to the government declaring some list of words to be used or not used in all circumstances. But somebody publishing a style guide (there are lots of different style guides, each of which also changes from time to time) or a list on the Internet? That’s not remotely the same thing. – I don’t agree with everything in this specific guide, and I think the reasons they give are so vague as to be useless. But as far as the general idea of ‘pay attention to what you’re saying so as to try not to accidentally insult or upset people’ – I’ve got no problem with that at all. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/30 "2021-10-07T22:27:12Z")
It starts out well, with some sensible suggestions, and then gets ridiculous. “Tribe” is a particularly bad one. It seems to arise from a racist assumption that only non-white people had tribes in recent history - I mean that the people proscribing the word are making racist assumptions. Also, it’s a term used by a lot of NNT (non-neurotypical people) - of all backgrounds - to describe finding a group of people they feel comfortable with due to similar interests and ways of looking at the world. No other word represents that as well as “tribe” does. Family, friends and group certainly don’t come close. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/31 "2021-10-07T22:27:30Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Who gets to decide what’s “stupid”? All of us. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/32 "2021-10-07T22:28:11Z")
Including whoever wrote that list? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/33 "2021-10-07T22:41:54Z")
They don’t, not for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/34 "2021-10-07T22:47:46Z")
The “brown paper bag” test was about colorist within the Black community, especially in the Pre-Civil rights Era. Middle class black society was only open to people who could pass the “brown paper bag test”. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/35 "2021-10-07T22:56:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But as far as the general idea of ‘pay attention to what you’re saying so as to try not to accidentally insult or upset people’ – I’ve got no problem with that at all. (snipped) I don’t think anyone here has issues with that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/36 "2021-10-07T23:04:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Who gets to decide what’s “stupid”? > > All of us. Yup. And we’ll all come to slightly different conclusions. And that’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/37 "2021-10-07T23:05:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Also, it’s a term used by a lot of NNT (non-neurotypical people) - of all backgrounds - to describe finding a group of people they feel comfortable with due to similar interests and ways of looking at the world. No other word represents that as well as “tribe” does. Family, friends and group certainly don’t come close. Jews also use it to refer to fellow Jews. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/38 "2021-10-07T23:11:22Z")
Not to mention the whole 12 Tribes part. No, the tribe one is one of the worst things in the OP’s list. It is actually insulting that they included that. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/39 "2021-10-07T23:13:52Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Since I couldn’t reproduce in table format here, I organized the text as best as possible. > **How to make a table in Discourse (click to show/hide)** > > The format is like this: > > > Heading1 | Heading2 | Heading3 > > ---|---|--- > > Cell1 | Cell2 | Cell3 > > Cell4 | Cell5 | Cell6 > > and it turns out like this: > > > | Heading1 | Heading2 | Heading3 | > > | --- | --- | --- | > > | Cell1 | Cell2 | Cell3 | > > | Cell4 | Cell5 | Cell6 | ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074/40 "2021-10-07T23:18:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Who uses Sherpa? Is that really a phrase in the US? I have read “I’m not your Sherpa” ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inclusive-language-guide/952074.md?page=3)