You could at least properly quote me, Ibn.
Lol. Tell that to the many brain surgeons that are getting paid peanuts compared to the hundreds of pro ball bouncers.
I don’t need to-- you did.
Sorry, you complained he discriminated against “poor Caucasian males”.
Obviously, America is brutally unfair to straight white men.
Apology accepted.
Now if only you’d step back and consider the larger issue I’m getting at…
The issue being that huge numbers of bitter white losers are outraged by the fact that despite all the advantages they’ve gotten due to being born white, male and in America there are some black men out there who despite all the societal disadvantages they’ve gotten, st make vastly more money than the bitter white losers whining about this?
Once again, I don’t see why that’s an issue. Lebron makes that kind of money because when it comes to basketball, he has more talent and discipline, and work ethic than I do. His skill generates huge amounts of money for the white man who owns the team he plays for and he is paid effectively a percentage for doing so.
He’s similarly to a salesman making a 5% commission on everything he sells.
I don’t begrudge real estate agents who made money when I bought my house.
And if course it’s telling that the black NBA players who make peanuts compared to the white owners who employ them wind up being the targets of wrath for bitter white losers not the white billionaires they work for.
As I said before, I don’t care about the feelings of the bitter white losers who are furious that their white skin privilege has failed them and furthermore see no reason to believe that a drastic salary cap preventing Lebron from earning millions would financially benefit anyone except his white employers.
Thankfully thanks to great men like Curt Flood, the plantation days when owners could refuse to pay players their fair share is done and we now can see just how much money people like Lebron generate for the teams they play for.
There’s nothing at all wrong with that. If you look at it objectively, you’ll note that the market for a brain surgeon’s services is much smaller than the market for the services of a Lebron James or Oprah Winfrey. Ball players and TV stars draw money due to the fact that what they do appeals to millions of people who are willing to pay relatively small amounts of money to watch them do what they do. Brain surgeons on the other hand make much larger sums of money from the people they serve, but their incomes are limited by the fact that they serve a vastly smaller market than do the celebrities you’re so incensed about.
So it’s really apples and oranges. You can’t simply look at one celebrity who’s making millions by appealing to many millions of fans and another who’s making a couple hundred thousand from a few hundred patients and declare therefore that society as a whole values the celebrity more. You might as well argue that society places a higher value on Big Macs than it does on brain surgeons because brain surgeons make peanuts compared to the amount McDonald’s earns from its burgers.
You’re a piece of work. You keep flinging out lame racial rhetoric as if it’s gospel truth while ignoring my insistence that I’m talking about something much larger and, frankly, more important than your strange hang up with everything being racial. (FYI, I referenced basketball players instead of football players or boxers because the ball bouncers get giant sums of dough while not subjecting themselves to the risks of physical damage that boxers and football players put themselves at. I also didn’t use hockey players because, as far as I know, those people don’t get near the sort of dough that the ball bouncers get.)
You keep using the word bitter when speaking about “white losers”, yet, maybe you’re projecting since I’ve only been speaking for myself on this issue and I’ve yet to meet any Caucasian that’s ever hinted at being bitter about what some African-American folks make. In fact I would guess that most would agree with you, though they’d be wrong.
And, since you’re so obsessed with race, what do you mean when you say “…huge numbers of bitter white losers are outraged by the fact that despite all the advantages they’ve gotten due to being born white, male and in America…”?
I ask because the last time I looked people of African descent in this country are elite citizens due to all of the special treatment they get as well as the numerous double standards they benefit from, and it’s been that way for a long time. We all know it’s true.
Also, I’ve never seen a “white” person in my life, just like I’ve never seen a “black” person in my life. Yes; the distinction is important because precise word usage matters, especially when speaking about something as complex and sensitive as race. And when one can’t get something as simple and obvious as that right, then how is one supposed to expect that they can speak intelligently on things that are more complex than the mere issue of what a person’s racial make up should classify them as? (Snow is white, coal is black. People are neither snow or coal – see?)
I don’t know who brainwashed you, pal, but they sure did a complete job. You sound like a parrot on steroids with all of this bitter white this bitter white that insanity.
One thing you taught me is that basketball means a whole lot to you. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
She received it by gaining informed consent from people who voluntarily gave her the money; ask what I’ve said or done to justify receiving my money, and I’ll likewise mumble something about having gained informed consent from people who’ve voluntarily given me money. People who’ve earned their money buy her magazine or pay to advertise on her show or otherwise think things through and say, yeah, it’s worth it to me to hand over this dollar amount.
Sure. “My assertion is that the whole construct needs to be examined with honesty and then, maybe, ripped to shreds (after a revolution, I fear) with a better one taking its place”, you said. “I would like to think that the answer to a fairer system would be to philosophize jobs by applying a sliding pay scale that would affix a value to each and every occupation known to man, with one of the big results being that a finite amount of dough circulating would be wisely spread out so that every human gets to feel like a human, instead of the current thing were mere talkers or ball bouncer … are getting obscene amounts”, you said.
What have I got to lose in a revolution like that?
Plenty.
I don’t want to justify my occupation to you; I already do that for the folks who pay me what they figure my services are worth, and I don’t much want to roll the dice on whether folks like you will declare the cash in my pocket “obscene”. And I don’t much want to keep what’s mine while gunning for what’s hers, because (a) she earned it the same way, and (b) I ain’t a hypocrite.
No disrespect, and good comments, but, you appear to not get that I’m talking about a complete revamping of a screwed up system that is outrageous and unfair on many levels. Also, I’ve never said or implied that I’m “incensed” with so-called celebrities, just the system that has created the mess that puts obscene amounts of dough into a relatively few people’s pockets, while crapping on millions of others that are grunting out their lives for the leftover chump change.
Not long ago there was a big billboard next to an interstate close to where I live. And on it was a big photo of Winfrey (looking out over the thousands of cars driving by each day) that had these words on it: “A force for good”
I ask you; exactly what is the big deal about this brazen self-promoter Winfrey? What has she ever said or done that in any sane world would have her living in a $55-million mansion as well as having nearly $3-billion in her bank account?
Again, I don’t begrudge anyone for accepting whatever amount of dough someone will hand them, but please don’t use the words “earned” or “made” because too many of these so-called entertainers in no way shape or form earned or made the massive amounts they’re getting, it was and continues to be the Construct along with the above mentioned musical chairs element that resulted in most of their good fortune.
This shows the gulf separating you from what I say is the need for a major overhaul of the current unfair construct too many of us are suffering under: “…you’ll note that the market for a brain surgeon’s services is much smaller than the market for the services of a Lebron James or Oprah Winfrey.”
Right. And, God forbid, in the event that you or someone you love is in serious need of having a deadly brain tumor removed, who are you going to call? Billionaire “entertainer” Winfrey and all of those way overpaid NBA stars, so-called, or a brilliant, highly educated and talented brain surgeon?
Again, priorities and proportion and meaningful skills matter when it comes to what’s going on in this country with regard to pay inequity and societal issues in general. I made my case earlier in this thread in how I think it should be changed, feel free to look it up. 
I know you made your case earlier and I intended to address it but ran out of time. Unfortunately I probably won’t have time tomorrow either, but suffice it to say your plan is totally unworkable for any number of reasons, and not only that but if it were to somehow be implemented anyway, it would kill the goose laying all the golden eggs you intend to use to finance it. The net result would be that all that wealth would be dissipated with no more created to take its place.
Your main problem is that you’ve developed an extremely negative and hostile mindset toward free market capitalism which has fooled you into believing a lot of things that just aren’t so. And not only that but it’s made you impervious to reason. I reference your continued railing against Winfrey vs. brain surgeons despite the fact I’ve shown very clearly the reasons for the disparity in their wealth and the fact that the one has absolutely no bearing on the other.
If I can find time the day after tomorrow and we’re both still interested in talking about it I’ll go into more specific detail to show how your plan wouldn’t work and how your hostile thought processes are deceiving you and leading you into taking a number of nonsensical positions, like the one you just made suggesting a loved one with a brain tumor might be faced with having to choose between Oprah or a brain surgeon.
I can hardly wait for your return, sir.
I could understand that. But these are things that I’ve explicitly already made my view clear on.
Do we only count the harm from something if the cause alone could cause it? I could break my leg due to many causes. Does this mean that if someone attacked me and broke it by force, that it isn’t “pertinent” to describe a broken leg as a harm that can arise from being attacked?
Per se? That seems a little hedging. I’ve already made my position clear on this particular matter, so I suppose I’d better ask what, if anything, is hiding behind that “per se”?
The Other Waldo Pepper has explained this to you. Oprah has one of the most successful talk shows in history, That’s what she has done.
I’d pick the brain surgeon. On the other hand, I am not likely to pay much to watch brain surgeons play basketball.
Not very clearly. You apparently want to be the one to decide who gets paid what and how much, instead of letting everyone else decide this thru what they choose to spend their money on. I don’t want you to be able to do this, for various reasons. Why should I let you?
Regards,
Shodan
Why does it matter to you that they are making so much money? Does that mean you make any the less money? does their wealth break your arm or endanger your livelihood at all? does it limit your opportunities?
What does this even mean? Who affixes the value? What if two people value something differently? Hell, what if everyone values everything differently? Which is how reality works.
I think he’s asking for a rule by a Philosopher King. I was born in a country with one and I’d prefer not to live there.
We already do that. It’s called a salary (or wages).
These sort of personal attack should be limited to The BBQ Pit. It is not appropriate to Great Debates.
= = =
Further, please do not include your responses to other posters within the quote tags of their posts. Keep the quotes and responses separate.
[ /Moderating ]
Ibn Warraq, your persistent references to “bitter white losers” in a thread in which few, if any references have been made to actual groups of whites who are bitter or losers looks a lot like an attack on a specific poster.
Knock it off.
[ /Moderating ]