# Increase minimum wage or establish a living wage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770 "2015-10-26T04:08:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/1 "2015-10-26T04:08:50Z")
Minimum wage is not enough to live on. But is an across the board minimum wage increase standard across the country the best solution? Or should there be a mandated schedule that ties local minimum wages to calculated [living wages](http://work.chron.com/living-wage-vs-minimum-wage-9160.html) for the region? > [@](#): > > Economists calculate recommended living wages based on the cost of living in a given area, household size and other factors, such as the poverty rate. State and local living wage laws require rates that range from $9 to $16 per hour, according to the National Employment Law Project. Some have multiple rates. Maryland’s living wage rates are $12.49 and $9.39 per hour, depending on the city or county. Los Angeles County’s living wage is $11.84 without health benefits or $9.64 with health benefits valued at $2.20 an hour or more. The 2012 federal minimum wage was $7.25 an hour as of 2012. More than 15 states and a few cities have minimum wage rates that are higher than the federal rate. The advantage of a mandated living wage over a one size fits all minimum wage is that rural districts with lower costs of living can maintain a lower wage structure that both is enough to live of off in the area and is low enough that any concerns regarding pressures against hiring more workers or driving industries away are mollified. It would also index on a regular basis. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/2 "2015-10-26T04:11:23Z")
Thoughts? The government shouldn’t be involved in wage (or price) controls. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/3 "2015-10-26T04:15:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Thoughts? > > The government shouldn’t be involved in wage (or price) controls. Of course it should. My cite is the 19th century. Unless you want company towns and people being paid in scrip, you need wage controls of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/4 "2015-10-26T04:18:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Unless you want company towns and people being paid in scrip, you need wage controls of some kind. No, you don’t. What is the value of anything, including labor? Whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/5 "2015-10-26T04:19:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, you don’t. What is the value of anything, including labor? Whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. No, actually the people of the country have said there is a minimum value for labor, so you’re wrong. Thanks for playing though. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/6 "2015-10-26T04:21:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, actually the people of the country have said there is a minimum value for labor, so you’re wrong. Are you seriously suggesting that the “people” are never wrong? Your argument is fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/7 "2015-10-26T04:22:26Z")
Sure, use a cost of living adjustment to a standard living wage. It doesn’t need to have that much variation, some places will be more economical than others for minimum wage employees. Let state and local governments take their own steps to offset the local cost of living or to set their own minimum above the federal minimum as they do now. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/8 "2015-10-26T04:30:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that the “people” are never wrong? Of course the people are wrong. All the time. However, in this case, since what you are advocating would cause company stores, and people paid in scrip, I’d say you’re wrong. The 19th century sucked. Trying to recreate the work environment from there is the definition of goofy. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/9 "2015-10-26T04:32:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, actually the people of the country have said there is a minimum value for labor, so you’re wrong. > > Thanks for playing though. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that the “people” are never wrong? Why would he do that? You’re a “people,” and he just pointed out that you’re wrong… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/10 "2015-10-26T05:08:33Z")
Entry level jobs won’t pay enough to raise a family or anything like that. It’s disturbing to think that somehow people don’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/11 "2015-10-26T05:11:21Z")
It’s disturbing to think that it’s unacceptable to not aspire to anything greater than “entry level.” ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/12 "2015-10-26T05:18:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The government shouldn’t be involved in wage (or price) controls. Word. The minimum wage that helps poor people the most is no minimum wage at all. Certain [liberals](https://m.facebook.com/senatorsanders/posts/10151588024242908) are constantly telling us Americans to imitate Scandinavia in our domestic policy, since the Scandinavian countries have supposedly reached the ideal state of shared prosperity and equality. Those liberals would probably be surprised if they looked up the minimum wage in Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. There isn’t one. Switzerland and Austria also have no minimum wage. All seven of those countries have [very low poverty rates.](http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=69&r=eu&l=en) A high minimum wage tends to strand people in poverty, because it prevents them from getting jobs. Abolishing minimum wage helps the poor by making it easy for them to get jobs. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/13 "2015-10-26T05:35:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Minimum wage is not enough to live on. But is an across the board minimum wage increase standard across the country the best solution? > > Or should there be a mandated schedule that ties local minimum wages to calculated [living wages](http://work.chron.com/living-wage-vs-minimum-wage-9160.html) for the region? > > The advantage of a mandated living wage over a one size fits all minimum wage is that rural districts with lower costs of living can maintain a lower wage structure that both is enough to live of off in the area and is low enough that any concerns regarding pressures against hiring more workers or driving industries away are mollified. It would also index on a regular basis. > > Thoughts? Neither. Eradicate the minimum wage entirely and make sure that welfare benefits are sufficient to have a modest existence on while strongly encouraging one to work. Employers are not responsible for peoples inability to manage their own lives or increase their economic value. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/14 "2015-10-26T05:37:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Of course the people are wrong. All the time. However, in this case, since what you are advocating would cause company stores, and people paid in scrip, I’d say you’re wrong. > > The 19th century sucked. Trying to recreate the work environment from there is the definition of goofy. Absolutely incorrect. The fact that even Wal-Mart has to raise wages offered to attract workers proves that supply and demand, econ 101, does in fact work with labor. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/15 "2015-10-26T05:42:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Absolutely incorrect. The fact that even Wal-Mart has to raise wages offered to attract workers proves that supply and demand, econ 101, does in fact work with labor. So supply and demand didn’t exist in the 19th century? By the way, Wal-Mart as recent as 2008 tried to pay Mexican workers in company vouchers. So no, they’ll fucking do it the day they can get away with it. From: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905](http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905) > [@](#): > > A Walmex employee brought the complaint to the court about giving workers coupons as part of their pay. The practice also used to be common in the United States, especially in the mining industry. > > “It is similar to the practices carried out in old-time stores where workers also received their salaries in the form of vouchers to be redeemed in the stores owned by the boss,” the court said. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/16 "2015-10-26T05:48:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Word. The minimum wage that helps poor people the most is no minimum wage at all. That is a statement of ideology, not something writ into the bedrock of spacetime. > [@](#): > > Certain [liberals](https://m.facebook.com/senatorsanders/posts/10151588024242908) are constantly telling us Americans to imitate Scandinavia in our domestic policy, since the Scandinavian countries have supposedly reached the ideal state of shared prosperity and equality. Those liberals would probably be surprised if they looked up the minimum wage in Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. There isn’t one. From: [List of countries by minimum wage - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country) > [@Iceland](#): > > None; minimum wages are negotiated in various collectively bargained agreements and applied automatically to all employees in those occupations, regardless of union membership; while the agreements can be either industry- or sector-wide, and in some cases firm-specific, the minimum wage levels are occupation-specific.[8][43] > [@Denmark](#): > > None; instead, negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 ($18) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits.[8][76] > [@Sweden](#): > > None; in Sweden the law provides for the right of workers to form and join independent unions to bargain wages collectively, and it prohibits antiunion discrimination.[8] > [@Norway](#): > > None; wages normally fall within a national scale negotiated by labor, employers, and local governments.[8] > [@Finland](#): > > None; however, the law requires all employers, including non-unionized ones, to pay minimum wages agreed to in collective bargaining agreements; almost all workers are covered under such arrangements.[8] I think you might have included that context. As an aside, none of those countries have endemic generational poverty and our currently very low social mobility. > **[U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility](https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/)** > > The notion that anyone in America who is willing and able to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” can achieve significant upward mobility is deeply embedded in U.S. society. Conventional wisdom holds that class barriers in the United States are... ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/17 "2015-10-26T05:50:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Minimum wage is not enough to live on. But is an across the board minimum wage increase standard across the country the best solution? > > Or should there be a mandated schedule that ties local minimum wages to calculated [living wages](http://work.chron.com/living-wage-vs-minimum-wage-9160.html) for the region? > > The advantage of a mandated living wage over a one size fits all minimum wage is that rural districts with lower costs of living can maintain a lower wage structure that both is enough to live of off in the area and is low enough that any concerns regarding pressures against hiring more workers or driving industries away are mollified. It would also index on a regular basis. > > Thoughts? If you must have any sort of a minimum wage at all, do away with the federal mandate and let the individual states do what they want. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/18 "2015-10-26T05:56:10Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Entry level jobs won’t pay enough to raise a family or anything like that. It’s disturbing to think that somehow people don’t get that. Then it’s good that most minimum wage workers are NOT supporting a family. > [@](#): > > Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up nearly half of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 15 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 3 percent of workers age 25 and older. [http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf](http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/19 "2015-10-26T06:09:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So supply and demand didn’t exist in the 19th century? > > By the way, Wal-Mart as recent as 2008 tried to pay Mexican workers in company vouchers. So no, they’ll fucking do it the day they can get away with it. > > From: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905](http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/09/05/mexico-walmex-idUSN0546591320080905) Unless you are a slave, you are free to walk away and negotiate a better rate at a competitor. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770/20 "2015-10-26T06:13:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Unless you are a slave, you are free to walk away and negotiate a better rate at a competitor. You are free to do anything you want. However, there are circumstances that limit your options, at least if you want to deal with the real world. The people in those mining towns didn’t have other options, and once in debt to the boss, they’re locked in for good. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increase-minimum-wage-or-establish-a-living-wage/735770.md?page=2)