# Increased Penalties for Disproportionate Vehicular Endangerment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061 "2003-03-13T07:59:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FIREMAN44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@FIREMAN44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FIREMAN44)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/21 "2003-03-14T00:39:13Z")
I read the article that was quoted from and where I have to do a lot of driving (San Antonio) I see a lot of aggressive driving (read “speeding, illegal lane changes & running red lights”) attributed to wanna-be Jeff Gordons driving their little Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans. There is a big problem with racing on city streets with these small cars, so if by driving a larger vehicle (read “SUV or Truck”) I can increase my childrens’ chance of survival in a wreck caused by these racers, I’ll take my chances on getting a larger ticket for tailgating. Also, from where you are sitting I may be tailgating, but from where I am sitting, you just cut in front of me while I was trying to get three seconds between me and the car in front of me. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/22 "2003-03-14T01:02:39Z")
There are far too many variables here. If this is such an “epidemic” as Zen suggests, then I would hazard a guess that NHTSA and the DOT would be pitching a WAY bigger fit about it. For the draconian penalties Zen’s talking about, there would be a whole new legal niche carved out, in that there would have to be absolute proof (i.e radar) that a person was tailgating. The 2.3 second reaction time that you speak of Z, only applies to a fraction of the drivers who are relatively young, healthy, and well rested. Tell me, what portion of the American poplulation is that? I think, honestly, that Zen has too much time to play with out there in the California sun. Here in Chicago, you’re as likely to get tailgated as you are to tailgate, with the ratio of vehicles to aggressive type a drivers, tailgating is a defensive mechanism. What’s more, Zen has failed to show societal damage in the existance of tailgating, does tailgating cost everyone money? No. Does Tailgating increase deaths and injuries in vehicle accidents like failing to wear a seatbelt or drive 55 mph? If it does, I haven’t seen the studies… If you’re worried about getting hit on your bicycle, then don’t ride the damn thing in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/23 "2003-03-14T01:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FIREMAN44 \* > … Also, from where you are sitting I may be tailgating, but from where I am sitting, you just cut in front of me while I was trying to get three seconds between me and the car in front of me. \*\* **FIREMAN44** , you are positing a situation based upon an invalid assumption. If you are maintaining correct following distance and someone has cut in front of you, they are breaking the law by tailgating the car that was previously in front of you. While you are required to restore correct following distance behind the person who cut you off, it is they who should receive the ticket and not you. I suppose I should provide further guidelines for how this sort of law could be implemented: [ul][li]An officer must witness the infraction. This is also known as an “on sight” violation.[/li] [li]The unsafe condition must persist for more than one quarter mile or thirty seconds, whichever comes first. An exception is in the case of an egregious violation where there is less than one meter separating any car involved immediately after the fact.[/li] [li]Drivers intruding into another person’s proper following distance are regarded as the primary violator.[/ul][/li] These are some of the guide lines that could be used to determine culpability. ---
**Author:** ![FIREMAN44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@FIREMAN44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FIREMAN44)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/24 "2003-03-14T01:33:40Z")
Look Zenster, I’m not trying to downplay the importance of not tailgaiting, I just think the danger is not any greater then the danger of say, someone speeding dangerously. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/25 "2003-03-14T05:14:05Z")
**FIREMAN44** , Violation of speed laws are already enforced somewhat vigorously, tailgating **is not**. I am proposing that it should be and that it would be very worth while to do so. No one has yet to show me why not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/26 "2003-03-17T17:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FIREMAN44 \* > Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans. There is a big problem with racing on city streets with these small cars, so if by driving a larger vehicle (read “SUV or Truck”) I can increase my childrens’ chance of survival in a wreck caused by these racers, I’ll take my chances on getting a larger ticket for tailgating. \*\* But it isn’t. SUV are about as safe overall, as regular "compact cars’ are. If you wanted something safe for your kids, you’d be driving a Volvo or a Mercedes sedan or the like- they are several times safer than your SUV. Sure, not all of us can afford a Volvo, but if you can afford a SUV, with higher gas pirces & higher insurance costs, then you afford any of a number of nice midsized sedans. And- your kids would be safer. One more time- overall- SUV’s are about average in safety. They are NOT “safer”. Dudes who think they are 'safer" look at one small & rare aspect of accidents- “head to head” with another car. In these rather rare accidents, then usually yes, “bigger is better”. However, of course we have to remember that an SUV has a much higher “roll-over”- and a much lessened 'avoidance"- %. Not to mention that being “trucks” they don’t have the same safety regs as passenger autos. So, if you’re driving a SUV to “protect your kids”- you’re wrong- “dead wrong”. And it’s YOUR children that may have to pay for your mistake. So dudes. Don’t drive aggressively. Don’t tailgate. (But don’t impede traffic either). Tell you what. I’ll make you a bet. Try this for one week. Afetr that week, pull down your pants. I’ll bet a nickle your balls won’t be any smaller.😛 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/27 "2003-03-17T17:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > So dudes. Don’t drive aggressively. Don’t tailgate. (But don’t impede traffic either). Tell you what. I’ll make you a bet. Try this for one week. Afetr that week, pull down your pants. I’ll bet a nickle your balls won’t be any smaller.😛 :dubious: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/28 "2003-03-17T17:50:28Z")
During practical experiments with driver avoidance systems, it was found that other cars would nip into the space between the driver and the leading car, slowing the car down further, and further, until it slowed to a stop on the highway. This appears to be a cultural issue. ---
**Author:** ![FIREMAN44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@FIREMAN44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FIREMAN44)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/29 "2003-03-17T18:42:43Z")
DrDeth, I beg to differ, unless you can offer up a site covering what I am talking about. A Honda racing along; HE may be safer if I’m driving a mid-size car, but I feel real safe in my Chevy pick-up with lots of bumper and motor between me and blacktop. I don’t drive aggressively, I follow the speed limits and I drive DEFENSIVELY ALWAYS. I always assume the guy pulling up to the stop sign will not stop and try to think three to four seconds ahead of him. ---
**Author:** ![FIREMAN44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@FIREMAN44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FIREMAN44)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/30 "2003-03-17T18:45:43Z")
DrDeth, I beg to differ, unless you can offer up a site covering what I am talking about. A Honda racing along; HE may be safer if I’m driving a mid-size car, but I feel real safe in my Chevy pick-up with lots of bumper and motor between me and blacktop. I don’t drive aggressively, I follow the speed limits and I drive DEFENSIVELY, ALWAYS. I always assume the guy pulling up to the stop sign will not stop and try to think three to four seconds ahead of him. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/31 "2003-03-24T07:09:41Z")
**FIREMAN44** ; Unless that motor is re-directed by a heavy duty skid plate forcing it to pass below the driver’s compartment, you are sh!t out of luck. Bulk metal is not always on your side. Double check your vehicle’s design specs before assuming anything. Thinking three or four seconds ahead of the other driver is always good. Having a car with an unreinforced firewall is NOT. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/32 "2003-03-25T14:50:30Z")
I agree entirely with the idea that larger vehicles should face larger penalties for tailgating. This is only logical. If I wave a dull pencil dangerously around your face, I’m endangering you less than if I wave a bowie knife dangerously around your face. Increased threat = increased penalties. I do wonder about one thing, though: how come people complain about other drivers entering their safe following distance? I thought that was how highways work. If you’re in the right-hand lane and are maintaining a 3-second following distance between you and the person right in front of you, and if I’m in the left-hand lane and my exit’s coming up in a mile or so, of course I’m gonna change lanes. And I might move into that nice 3-second space you had, forcing you to slow down enough to make a new 3-second space. But if you’re not maintaining a 3-second following speed – if you’re an asshole tailgater who’s maintaining a 1.5 car-length distance between you and the car in front of you – I’ll still need to get over into the right-hand lane. And if the only way for me to do that is to slip into your tiny following space, that’s what I’m going to do. I’m not going to miss my exit just because you’re being a tweaker tailgater. The plain fact is that on multilane roads, people gotta change lanes. And sometimes they’ll do that by getting in front of you. Your responsibility is to adjust to that, to maintain a proper following distance from the people in front of you. When you complain that maintaining a proper following distance allows other people to get in front of you, you betray a deep lack of understanding of how multilane roads work. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/33 "2003-03-25T16:05:02Z")
I’m so glad **Zenster** , in a fine display of independent thinking not yet seen on these boards, has recognized the _extreme_ and _unique_ sociopolitical hazards posed by SUVs. Once we have SUV-specific laws, we will be safe from tailgaters. I will feel completely safe when there is a minivan or pickup truck riding my tail, knowing that they are not SUVs. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **The continuing trend towards increased vehicular size, weight and horsepower (read SUV) mandates a narrowing of the law concerning their operation. The huge inequity of risk for those hit by a SUV while driving a compact automobile makes this vital.** I was recently tailgated, struck from the rear and slammed into a ditch by an oversized pickup. Thank GOD it wasn’t a right-wing, flag-waving, tobacco-chewing, warmongering SUV driver, or the situation might have been SERIOUS. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/34 "2003-03-25T16:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*I’m so glad **Zenster** , in a fine display of independent thinking not yet seen on these boards, has recognized the _extreme_ and _unique_ sociopolitical hazards posed by SUVs. \*\* I’m not glad yet. I’ll only be glad when folks learn to read the OP before being snarky about it. Want some help? I’ll bold part of it for you: > [@](#): > > The previous scenario is not the only example of disproportionate risk. Regular cars tailgating motorcyclists or bicyclists also represent an equally egregious violation of the law. **Similarly, trucks, buses and other high-load vehicles should face the same increased penalties for tailgating passenger cars.** Fortunately, large commercial vehicles are usually operated by professionals whose entire livelihood depends upon a clean driving record. They are much less likely to commit such breaches of safety on the road. Glad to be of service. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/35 "2003-03-25T16:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **I’m not glad yet. I’ll only be glad when folks learn to read the OP before being snarky about it. Want some help? I’ll bold part of it for you:** And I’m pleased to return the favor. Hearken to the OP. > [@](#): > > Tailgate a compact car in your **SUV** and watch the fines double or triple. > …The continuing trend towards increased vehicular size, weight and horsepower (read **SUV** ) mandates a narrowing of the law concerning their operation. The huge inequity of risk for those hit by a **SUV** while driving a compact automobile makes this vital…The same cannot be said for a significant portion of **SUV** drivers…While tailgating has been a fairly common moving violation throughout the history of driving, the **SUV** specifically has changed all of that…Detroit has carefully bred these inadequacies out of the current **SUV** designs. There has been absolutely no commensurate effort on the part of industry to educate these same drivers about the increased risk that improper operation represents to the driving public… Elevated penalties will have to substitute in the absence of special driver training classes whose successful completion is required to operate a **SUV**. As noted previously, this is another in the endless series of posters salivating and frothing at the mouth like one of Pavlov’s dogs at the thought of SUVs. The OP would have had some credibility had it stuck to the concept of disproportionately penalizing all oversized tailgating vehicles. Minivans and pickups get a pass here, because, well, SUVs are EVIL. The rest of the discussion is window dressing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/36 "2003-03-25T17:01:35Z")
Huh? So because he mentioned SUVs more than other large vehicles, the passages where he specifically mentioned other large vehicles don’t matter? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061/37 "2003-03-25T17:51:13Z")
Daniel. When he mentions trucks he’s talking about _commercial trucks_, not passenger vehicles. For instance: _“Similarly, trucks, buses and other high-load vehicles should face the same increased penalties for tailgating passenger cars. Fortunately, large commercial vehicles are usually operated by professionals whose entire livelihood depends upon a clean driving record. They are much less likely to commit such breaches of safety on the road.”_ Point me to mentions of pickups and minivans, and I’ll make a large donation to the Social Cohesion Relief Fund. I see, by conservative estimate, a gazillion of these vehicles on the road every day, relatively few of which are carrying loads that could not be handled by a compact car, and many of which are operated in an unsafe manner. Tailgating in general _is_ a significant traffic problem. When it comes to road rage, though, I am starting to worry about the reflex anti-SUV crowd. The illogical bile that is spewed translates into a lot of barely suppressed rage, and I am concerned about the public safety when these people get out on the road. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increased-penalties-for-disproportionate-vehicular-endangerment/161061.md?page=1)