# Increasing amount of Math HS students take hurts, not helps math education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456 "2003-07-18T19:30:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Albert\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Albert\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Albert_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/21 "2003-07-19T18:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Y’know, I keep hearing about “abstract thought processes,” but I did just fine with my abstract thought processes without mathematics. > > And the only time I’ve ever needed most of the math I’ve ever learned was to pass math courses. The only real use I’ve ever found for higher algebra and trig was for getting through college algebra and trig classes. > . > . > . > We begin with the odd belief that a good teacher can teach anyone. This is a load of hooey. NOBODY can teach a kid who absolutely refuses to be taught, and certain learning-disabled children are considerably harder to teach than your mainstream kids. > . > . > . > Shouldn’t we make a point of determining what the children need to learn for their future? Oh, wait. I already know. > > Some of them will need to know the things that will help them get jobs, pay bills, support families, and so on. The rest will need to know those things, plus the skills and knowledge that will permit them to get and make use of college educations. > > Shouldn’t that be our priority, here? \*\* Thank you, thank you, and thank you.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/22 "2003-07-19T19:52:01Z")
Make accounting mandatory. Scientists and engineers have to make financial decisions are we supposed to believe they can’t handle accounting. 5th grade arithmatic. Should drop the debits and credits business though. It is a totally unnecessary complication. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/23 "2003-07-19T20:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > Y’know, I keep hearing about “abstract thought processes,” but I did just fine with my abstract thought processes without mathematics. So we can conclude that EVEYONE will develop a good grasp of abstract reasoning without studying math just because YOU (and I) can? I think we are trying to be a bit more objective here. That’s not to say math is the ONLY way to develop your reasoning process, but it sure can’t hurt. Just my pair of pennies. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/24 "2003-07-19T20:29:05Z")
Originally posted by WakeUpCall This is not very difficult to do. One suggestion is to have a class (from 1st grade through 6th) entitled “what do we want to be when we grow up”. Answers will range from “I want to be a Barbie”, to “I want to be just like my mom”, to “I want to be a plumber like my dad”, to “I want to be a fireman”, to “I want to be an astronaut”, etc. The teacher will then have to start from those objectives (for every kid) and back down, laying a roadmap (in child language) as to what the kid needs to do to achieve the objective. If the teacher is well trained, she/he can start planting the seeds and growing the interest in the kids as to why they need to know certain things (don’t even call it math) to achieve their objective, from the need to count the number of lipsticks for Barbie, to the need to measure the distance from here to moon for an astronaut. By the time the kids get to the 6th grade, they have probably changed their dream/objective to something else. but they still would be interested to know how to get there. Even if the kid still wants to be a Barbie at the age of 12, she needs to know how much money she needs to have for the car, the Jacuzzi, and the house. A good teacher can then use the kid’s motives to make sure the kid appreciates the need for having the basic tools required to achieve the ultimate aim of becoming a Barbie. So in a class of 28 students, where each child could have a different choice of career, one teacher would assemble materials, write lesson plans, and develop assesments for each child individually? This is a great idea in theory, but practically it is impossible. Where are the parents in this discussion, don’t they have any influence on their child’s education and future choices? To create an environment where elementary teachers are responsible for teaching 5 major subject areas to so many children, and then ask them to cater that subject matter to each child’s individual interests so that they will be motivated is ridiculous. This would be akin to asking the Federal Government to create laws which address the needs of every American. I agree with many of your other points relating directly to the question of the extra math courses, but the above plan was not well thought out. We can not change the educational system from the bottom up. As long as colleges have certain requirement for entrance, then those objectives will have to be taught, though not required, in high schools. These high school objectives set the curriculum for all earlier grades. In almost all high schools I know of, Trig. and Calculus are not required courses, unless you wish to go to college. We can’t fault the high schools for this system. As I stated in my first post, high schools do a fairly good job of offering classes that meet the needs of students with differing abilities. This is not reason to think that the individual needs of every student can be met in the educational environment we currently have. To assume that this is possible is truely ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/25 "2003-07-19T20:30:38Z")
Don’t know what went wrong with the quote above, but WakeUpCall’s post stops with the ending of the 4th paragraph. Sorry for the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/26 "2003-07-19T21:13:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moejuck \* > \*\* > So in a class of 28 students, where each child could have a different choice of career, one teacher would assemble materials, write lesson plans, and develop assesments for each child individually? This is a great idea in theory, but practically it is impossible. > \*\* I disagree. Having talked to several K-6 teachers, the following transpired: 1- When the first few kids say what they want to be when they grow up, generally most others repeat the same objectives. So, in a class of 28, you will not end up with 28 different objectives. 2- These objectives are finite in number. The well-thought roadmaps for each objective is stored in the teacher’s/school’s computer as teaching aids. After a while, they becomes a repeat of the past objectives. 3- If the roadmaps are well designed, as you start from the rightmost (the objective) on each roadmap and move left (where the kid is today), you will arrive at a set of required tools (elementary arithmetic) which will be common to all roadmaps. But now, every kid sees the need for those tools as a necessary step to achieve his/her own particular dream/objective within his/her own roadmap. Now you start teaching arithmetic, with every kid knowing exactly why he/she is learning it. The same can be applied to high school algebra. If the 16 year old wants to become a successful businessman in widgets, he should be made to realize that he needs to order optimum quantity of materials to build enough widgets just in time. The teacher can then show how the determination of this optimum inventory leads to solving a quadratic equation. The youngster begins to understands why there is a need to know how to solve a quadratic equation. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/27 "2003-07-19T22:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wake up call \* > \*\*I disagree. > > Having talked to several K-6 teachers, the following transpired: > > 1- When the first few kids say what they want to be when they grow up, generally most others repeat the same objectives. So, in a class of 28, you will not end up with 28 different objectives. > > You are providing one example that fits your logic. You can’t start an educational philosophy around the hope that most of the children will pick the same career. Since this is the most likely outcome, how are you fitting the curriculum to thier future needs in the first place. Students will simply pick whatever is possible without thought to their future. > > 2- These objectives are finite in number. The well-thought roadmaps for each objective is stored in the teacher’s/school’s computer as teaching aids. After a while, they becomes a repeat of the past objectives. > > I teach nothing but 6th grade math, and I teach somewhere around 60 different objectives. That is just for math! Most of these are being introduced for the first time. They might build on earlier objectives, but that doesn’t mean they will be understood by the students. > > 3- If the roadmaps are well designed, as you start from the rightmost (the objective) on each roadmap and move left (where the kid is today), you will arrive at a set of required tools (elementary arithmetic) which will be common to all roadmaps. But now, every kid sees the need for those tools as a necessary step to achieve his/her own particular dream/objective within his/her own roadmap. Now you start teaching arithmetic, with every kid knowing exactly why he/she is learning it. > If you really believe that relating math to Barbies or SpongeBob Squarepants is going to give students an understanding of why they are learning something, you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Teachers have and do try to use approaches to get students involved in subject matter. This might work with 7 year olds, but once they get to a certain point they either want to learn or they don’t. You can encourage and try to motivate them, and all are able to change thier mind, but tying objectives to cute little themes that each student picks will still not be a practical approach. > > The same can be applied to high school algebra. If the 16 year old wants to become a successful businessman in widgets, he should be made to realize that he needs to order optimum quantity of materials to build enough widgets just in time. The teacher can then show how the determination of this optimum inventory leads to solving a quadratic equation. The youngster begins to understands why there is a need to know how to solve a quadratic equation. \*\* And what about the high schoolers who want to become drug dealers, pimps, rockstars, pornstars and so on. I think these would be some of the typical responses you would get from some high school students. What to do then? Again, in a class of 28 Algebra students, individualizing the instruction would be so much work, that you would need 3 or teachers to teach the class, at least. Math teachers are hard to come by, so this would not be feasible. Please realize the amount of work that teachers, especially high school teachers, already put into grading work, developing assesments, and writing plans. If you ask them to do this for each student, computer aided or not, they would never be able to teach half that material they are supposed to. You have spoken to some teachers who enjoy the luxury of having student objectives stored on computers, and that is great, but I assure you that the vast majority of teachers across our great nation do not have this same luxury. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/28 "2003-07-19T22:44:21Z")
Damn my ignorance of using the quote! Every other paragraph in bold print is actually mine. This always happens at the least convenient time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/29 "2003-07-20T05:49:16Z")
Perhaps there should be two levels of math: required, and advanced. Basically tracking, but with self-selection. monstro > [@](#): > > But anyone who can operate a calculator can do and appreciate statistics. Yes, in the sense that anyone who can operate MatLab can do calculus. But to actually understand statistics, you have to know calculus. Measure theory helps, too. PS to Whack-a-Mole: ax[sup]2[/sup]+bx+c=0 4a(ax[sup]2[/sup]+bx+c)=4a\*0 4a[sup]2[/sup]x[sub2[/sup]+4abx+4ac=0 4a[sup]2[/sup]x[sub2[/sup]+4abx+b[su]2[/sup]-b[su]2[/sup]+4ac=0 (2ax+b)[sup]2[/sup]-b[sup]2[/sup]+4ac=0 (2ax+b)[sup]2[/sup]=b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac 2ax+b=±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac) 2ax=-b±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac) x=(-b±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac))/2a Now, really, how could you forget something as simple as that? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/30 "2003-07-20T05:51:49Z")
That’s what I get for not previewing. ax[sup]2[/sup]+bx+c=0 4a(ax[sup]2[/sup]+bx+c)=4a\*0 4a[sup]2[/sup]x[sup]2[/sup]+4abx+4ac=0 4a[sup]2[/sup]x[sup]2[/sup]+4abx+b[sup]2[/sup]-b[sup]2[/sup]+4ac=0 (2ax+b)[sup]2[/sup]-b[sup]2[/sup]+4ac=0 (2ax+b)[sup]2[/sup]=b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac 2ax+b=±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac) 2ax=-b±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac) x=(-b±sqrt(b[sup]2[/sup]-4ac))/2a ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/31 "2003-07-20T06:20:00Z")
I’ve seen a couple of people hit this point, but I really want to hammer on it, hard, with a very big hammer. School should teach kids **real world math.** As in, how to calculate interest payments on credit cards. How to balance a checkbook. How to figure out returns on investments. How to calculate tips. How to make change. I’m dead serious. The number of people out there who struggle through life without knowing these things is amazing. Algebra, geometry, calculus… sure, those are great to know. But thousands of kids graduate from high school with credit card debt, and they don’t understand the first thing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/32 "2003-07-20T23:28:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*Now, really, how could you forget something as simple as [this] \*\* 16 - 36 = 25 - 45 Add 81/4 to both sides 16 - 36 + 81/4 = 25 - 45 + 81/4 (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] = (5 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] Take square root of both sides 4 - 9/2 = 5 - 9/2 4 = 5 2 x 2 = 5 ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/33 "2003-07-21T02:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] = (5 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] > > Take square root of both sides > > 4 - 9/2 = 5 - 9/2 The square root of (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] is 9/2 - 4, not 4 - 9/2. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/34 "2003-07-21T02:48:06Z")
This one’s pretty nice too: Let A = B. A[sup]2[/sup] = AB A[sup]2[/sup] - B[sup]2[/sup] = AB - B[sup]2[/sup] (A + B)(A - B) = B(A - B) A + B = B 2B = B 2 = 1 ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/35 "2003-07-21T02:54:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dal\_timgar \* > \*\*Make accounting mandatory. Scientists and engineers have to make financial decisions are we supposed to believe they can’t handle accounting. > \*\* I can’t speak for engineers, but many scientists do have a weakness in regards to accounting. There are labs that have to go through a “don’t spend anything” month every year. Actual accountancy training for scientists often waits until after the PhD is acquired, and then it’s only at the whim of the post-doctorate’s employer. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/36 "2003-07-21T03:02:11Z")
Accounting is a very useful skill, and should be taught to everyone. Above and beyond that, increasing the quantity of math classes will harm students if the teaching is poor. What we need to do is to improve the quality of math education. How do we do that? Uh… ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/37 "2003-07-21T03:36:33Z")
**Cabbage:** Ah. Ah, Square root of (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] has two answers: (4 - 9/2) and (9/2 - 4). I used the former answer. **Super Gnat:** Ah. Ah. If A = B, then (A - B) is zero. A rule of algebra is that you cannot devide both side of an equation by zero. So if A = B, you cannot eliminate (A - B) from both side of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/38 "2003-07-21T11:23:02Z")
The square root of a number is commonly defined to be nonnegative, so that square root is a function, and so that “taking the square root of both sides” of an equation is a legitimate operation. Under this convention, the square root of (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] is 9/2 - 4, not 4 - 9/2. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/39 "2003-07-21T13:41:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Mr. Visible_ > > School should teach kids real world math. Thank you, thank you, thank you. One of the required HS math courses should be financial math. I wish I had taken an accounting course at some point. My HS didn’t offer them, and I wasn’t motivated to take one at college, but I really feel my ignorance now. One of my friends is an elementary school teacher who has real problems with the way math is taught in the lower grades. Her theory is that unless you hook the kids by 5th grade, showing them that math can be interesting and extremely useful, you’ve lost them for good. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456/40 "2003-07-21T13:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cabbage \* > \*\*Under this convention, the square root of (4 - 9/2)[sup]2[/sup] is 9/2 - 4, not 4 - 9/2. \*\* Cite? Look. Square root of .25 is both +.5 and -.5 Do you really want to refute that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasing-amount-of-math-hs-students-take-hurts-not-helps-math-education/189456.md?page=3)