# Increasingly, people are being killed over smaller and smaller things **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 5, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613 "2023-05-05T14:21:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/181 "2023-05-07T14:46:33Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > are we facing a situation where, even if fewer people in gross total are being killed than 30 years ago, too often it happens because individuals have decided to go straight out to maximum impact to “eliminate” the perceived threat. Probably too often to hold up to rigorous scrutiny (as being overwhelmingly justified), we see _multiple_ LEOs empty their 15+ round magazines into suspects where the suspect didn’t _inarguably_ pose a credible threat to the officers. There is no kill like overkill, and ISTM this permeates the culture in the way we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/182 "2023-05-07T14:47:19Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Y’see, there TOWP’s line of argument goes further of the rail due to a moving goalpost: now it’s no longer interrupting a disturbance, now it’s ensuring that the subject cannot provoke another one. Are you _seriously_ arguing that I needed to spell out from the start that “interrupting a disturbance” makes no sense if the criminal is still right there, able to keep right on keeping right on? You _honestly_ think that’s a moving goalpost, instead of something I’d figured all along was too obvious to mention? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/183 "2023-05-07T14:49:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > if you’re going to immobilize him right when you see him committing a crime, …the flaw in your argument is that we can see that he is fucking dead in the video. “He’s dead Jim.” They even talk about the moment he defecated. He wasn’t running anywhere. He wasn’t getting up. Because he was _dead_. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What **assurance** do you have that he _would_ run away instead of going back to committing crimes right there and then, with no police around? That isn’t how living in a society works. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but there are no guarantees in life. You are allowed to protect yourself. If he gets up and attacks you again (even though there is no evidence he attacked in the first place) you are allowed to protect yourself again. What you aren’t allowed to do is to kill him. You aren’t allowed to take the law into your own hands. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/184 "2023-05-07T14:51:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That isn’t how living in a society works. > > I’m sorry to disappoint you, but there are no guarantees in life. You are allowed to protect yourself. If he gets up and attacks you again (even though there is no evidence he attacked in the first place) you are allowed to protect yourself again. What you aren’t allowed to do is to kill him. You aren’t allowed to take the law into your own hands. Are you saying it _isn’t_, or that it _shouldn’t_ be? If the former, we’ll see, as this percolates its way through the legal system; if the latter, I disagree already. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/185 "2023-05-07T14:54:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Are you saying it _isn’t_, or that it _shouldn’t_ be? …am I saying “what is” or “what isn’t?” Your question is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/186 "2023-05-07T14:55:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …am I saying “what is” or “what isn’t?” Your question is unclear. “What you aren’t allowed to do is to kill him.” [ETA: “That isn’t how living in a society works.”] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/187 "2023-05-07T14:58:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Are you _seriously_ arguing that I needed to spell out from the start that “interrupting a disturbance” makes no sense if the criminal is still right there, able to keep right on keeping right on? You _honestly_ think that’s a moving goalpost, instead of something I’d figured all along was too obvious to mention? Yes. Because what we are discussing in this line that took over the thread is a case where the immediate threat **had been suppressed** – man is down, man is restrained, yet this person **continues to apply force beyond what was necessary for that**. Now, it may be that upon further investigation it is determined that in the heat of the confrontation he was not able to make a good judgement. That’s a fair cop. But it still means that once he achieved the takedown _he was wrong to go on to the end_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/188 "2023-05-07T14:59:51Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Because what we are discussing in this line that took over the thread is a case where the immediate threat **had been suppressed** – man is down, man is restrained, yet this person **continues to apply force beyond what was necessary for that**. Will the threat resume, as was, as soon as you release him? Say you’re suppressing an immediate threat; what happens once you _stop?_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/189 "2023-05-07T15:01:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “What you aren’t allowed to do is to kill him.” …well if you _are_ allowed to kill him, then your society is obviously just fucked up. And I’ve got exactly zero faith in the American justice system. But where I live? No, lynching is against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/190 "2023-05-07T15:02:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Say you’re suppressing an immediate threat; what happens once you _stop?_ …was this before or after he shat himself? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/191 "2023-05-07T15:03:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …was this before or after he shat himself? You tell me. Is your before-or-after question meant to signal that there’s a difference, in that “before” means the threat resumes and “after” — doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/192 "2023-05-07T15:06:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Will the threat resume, as was, as soon as you release him? How about you do _not release_ him but you _do let him &#^%$ **breathe**?_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/193 "2023-05-07T15:07:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You tell me. Is your before-or-after question meant to signal that there’s a difference, in that “before” means the threat resumes and “after” — doesn’t? …well I mean, he’s dead. Do you continue to immobilize him after he’s stopped moving, and stopped breathing, and he’s defecated himself, and he’s obviously dead? Do you stop then? Or do you keep holding on, just in case he MAGICALLY springs back to life and starts (not) throwing garbage again? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/194 "2023-05-07T15:12:43Z")
At some point in time you guys are just going to have to realize that the pro-lynchers want to kill. It’s mainly about finding the right excuse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/195 "2023-05-07T15:16:36Z")
Who can refute a sneer? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/196 "2023-05-07T15:38:05Z")
This is all getting asymptotically Pitty, so I think I will go chill out a while. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/197 "2023-05-07T15:48:59Z")
I don’t see that this is going anywhere useful, and so wouldn’t mind taking a break likewise. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/198 "2023-05-07T15:50:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > said guy was committing a crime _right there and then_ on the subway, then letting him go simply restores the status quo ante right there and then. Granting your hypothetical about this particular case involving a “crime being committed”, letting him go does not restore the status quo. Is he currently committing a crime? No? Then the situation is different. There is no crime in progress. There’s a guy who was committing a crime minutes ago who is now subdued. Continuing to hold him is no longer required. The criminal behavior has ceased! Now, I know what you’re thinking: “if I let this guy start breathing, he might get up and start criming all over again!!!” Well, maybe. Maybe not. But use of force to prevent criming that might happen is a much more dubious moral position. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/199 "2024-12-06T23:14:28Z")
> The judge overseeing [the trial of Daniel Penny](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trial-start-man-accused-chokehold-death-nyc-subway-rcna175949), the man accused of using a deadly chokehold on Jordan Neely last year on a New York City subway, dismissed a manslaughter charge in the case Friday after jurors said they were deadlocked. > > The decision, which came at the request of prosecutors, means jurors will consider only the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. It carries a maximum sentence of up to four years. Jurors were not told that prosecutors made the request. Penny has pleaded not guilty. > **[Judge dismisses manslaughter charge in Daniel Penny trial after jury deadlock](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jury-daniel-penny-trial-tells-judge-cant-reach-agreement-manslaughter-rcna183185)** > > The anonymous jury will still consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/200 "2024-12-09T16:45:47Z")
Not Guilty. Just was announced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=11)