# Increasingly, people are being killed over smaller and smaller things **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 5, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613 "2023-05-05T14:21:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/21 "2023-05-05T16:55:40Z")
People have been getting killed for trivial matters like their last name or skin color for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/22 "2023-05-05T16:56:43Z")
Yup. Whites once again feel justified in murdering blacks for making them feel uncomfortable and don’t even try to hide it. > **[Fox News audience cheers as Sean Hannity discusses Jordan Neely's death](https://www.newsweek.com/sean-hannity-audience-cheers-jordan-neely-death-subway-1798522)** > > The talk-show host defended the commuters who intervened to apprehend Neely while he behaved erratically on the New York City subway. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/23 "2023-05-05T16:57:12Z")
The Atlantic has an article on this. Hopefully this link works. Their take is that the widespread idea that we are in the midst of a surge of apocalyptic crime coupled with the much more recent realization that anyone, anywhere could have a gun has contributed to this epidemic of fear that is driving at least some of the violence. Like the violence against this guy on the subway who was, in the end, having a crisis of some kind and was probably not a threat to anyone but himself. Note: I’m not saying we ARE in the midst of an apocalypic crime wave, just that the perception is out there. Among some groups. Fox News viewers, for example. > **[A Country Governed by Fear](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/05/new-york-subway-chokehold-death-mental-illness/673950/)** > > How America became a violent society ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/24 "2023-05-05T16:57:32Z")
I mean Stand your Ground and open carry without permit laws are expanding, and there are even calls from the GOP to make them national. As long as you claim you felt unsafe they want you to be able to kill at will. If you are the right kind of person. These laws are not centuries old… ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/25 "2023-05-05T16:57:36Z")
I think the day to day joyless grind of survival has strained a lot of folks to the breaking point. I agree that it’s always been like this, and that the lethal results are just getting more news coverage. I also think the myth of the American Dream plays a part. We are constantly told that the only reason we fail in America is because we didn’t work hard enough. We are collectively working our asses off, and it is never enough. Most people are either getting nowhere, or sliding backwards, and the moment we speak about how this system is killing us, we are told we are lazy and our misfortunes are all our fault. The problem is never the capitalist system with corporations becoming our feudal overlords. After a while, a person explodes over a trifle because their life sucks. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/26 "2023-05-05T16:57:43Z")
So, anyway, back to the OP, the murder rate is actually way down in America from the bad old days of the 70s, 80, and 90s. So, is the claim that murders are shifting from big things to smaller things? Because far fewer people overall are getting murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/27 "2023-05-05T17:26:45Z")
According to this chart, t’s lower than it was in 1990 but it’s on been its way up since 2015, and in 2020 jumped up 28% in a single year. > **[U.S. Murder/Homicide Rate 1990-2023](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate)** > > Intentional homicides are estimates of unlawful homicides purposely inflicted as a result of domestic disputes, interpersonal violence, violent conflicts over land resources, intergang violence over turf or control, and predatory violence and killing... ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/28 "2023-05-05T17:42:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’ll start [here,](https://twitter.com/NYDailyNews/status/1653535735385845760) I guess: _“Disturbed man with 40 priors threatening and throwing trash at strangers on Manhattan subway dies — after chokehold restraint by former Marine”_ — but if you want a better cite, I’ll try to find one for you Twitter post from the Daily News. Yes, please, considering that maybe a dozen other varied sites I checked didn’t mention it. In addition, that says he was ‘throwing garbage’. I don’t know what was in the particular garbage (presuming that he was actually throwing it), or if he’d brought it with him or found it already on the train; but most items that would be covered by that term don’t strike me as life-threatening to have thrown at you. Messy, annoying, and worth getting arrested for, yes. Worth being strangled to death for? Nope. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think it can be proper to put him in that hold, at which point you figure he’s prevented from throwing any more; you can then release him from that hold, at which point he’s — no longer prevented from throwing any more? With by then three people holding him down? And quite a few police forces are training not to use choke holds, because they’re too likely to kill the person being held. So, especially with no clear evidence that anyone’s life is in danger, it may well not have been proper to use such a hold. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/29 "2023-05-05T17:45:07Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > These laws are not centuries old… > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > but it’s on been its way up since 2015, and in 2020 jumped up 28% in a single year. And that’s the thing. We’re freaking out for a good reason. Things were getting better, and then, they started to get worse, and now they’re getting worse at a faster rate. And a lot of us think it’s these new laws, which merely reflect the attitudes that have become more and more common in the US. Sure, there used to be people being killed over trivial things, but once upon a time, we mostly realized that was a bad thing. People were expected to try to back down from a confrontation, and if someone got shot over a stupid argument, someone often went to jail. But now, with Stand Your Ground laws, a whole lot of those kinds of cases no longer involve someone going to jail - killing someone in these circumstances has been made legal. And on top of that, because of these new laws, there are a lot of people who have started to think that they’re _always_ justified in killing someone, even if the law ends up saying otherwise. When, “I was afraid, so I killed them” becomes a legal defense in so many cases, of course you get more people thinking, “I’m afraid, so it’s okay to kill!” all the time. And there’s lots of people out there willing to defend that attitude, which just makes it worse. No matter how egregious an example we find, someone somewhere will die on the hill of defending that person. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/30 "2023-05-05T18:02:43Z")
And it is largely red state America driving this surge. It is no coincidence that the epicenter of America’s fascist awakening is also the epicenter for the violence. They are armed, paranoid, aggrieved and most importantly, empowered by a conservative establishment that feeds their rage. > **[The Surprising Geography of Gun Violence](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413)** > > America’s regions are poles apart when it comes to gun deaths and the cultural and ideological forces that drive them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/31 "2023-05-05T18:10:36Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > When, “I was afraid, so I killed them” becomes a legal defense in so many cases, of course you get more people thinking, “I’m afraid, so it’s okay to kill!” all the time. And you also get people _looking_ for an opportunity to legally kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/32 "2023-05-05T18:11:16Z")
Red State rage is one of the biggest problems our society has right now. This constant outrage machine, calling everyone groomers, pedophiles, communists, marxists. Ever escalating claims that the left wants to destroy everything and end America. It’s an addiction to being furious at other Americans and it is not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/33 "2023-05-05T18:14:03Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > According to this chart, t’s lower than it was in 1990 but it’s on been its way up since 2015, and in 2020 jumped up 28% in a single year. Sounds about right. My claim is not so much that these murders have gone up since 2015, but that society is now starting to justify them on a “stand your ground” basis. As @Airbeck said, that is a new thing. Back in the day the story would make the news, the murderer arrested and tried, and people would say, “well, Bob may have snapped, but now he’s a murderer and he has to go through the legal process just like anyone else.” Now an increasing number of people say “well, Bob was justified in what he did, and we should praise him as a hero rather than putting him through the legal process.” Sometimes those people are the local DA. That’s the part that is new. > [@Horatius](#): > > And that’s the thing. We’re freaking out for a good reason. Things were getting better, and then, they started to get worse, and now they’re getting worse at a faster rate. Exactly. The mystery to me isn’t so much what is happening, but why it’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/34 "2023-05-05T18:15:34Z")
“Reason” and “Excuse” are not synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/35 "2023-05-05T18:17:14Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Sounds about right. My claim is not so much that these murders have gone up since 2015, but that society is now starting to justify them on a “stand your ground” basis. As @Airbeck said, that is a new thing. Is a homicide that isn’t prosecuted because of “stand your ground” even counted in those stats? > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Now an increasing number of people say “well, Bob was justified in what he did, and we should praise him as a hero rather than putting him through the legal process.” I mean, seriously, what did that 6 year old think was going to happen when she rang a doorbell? She brought this on herself! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/36 "2023-05-05T18:23:10Z")
Right, ISTM what we seem to have is _more frequent reports_ of rapid escalation to deadly force from what we were used to consider things that would not get there. Now, that is itself something of rose-colored glasses at work, as there have always been people with jumbo chips on their shoulders and an old-school punches-thrown fracas _can_ easily end up with someone dead, but that, in the old days, would only make the hometown paper the day after, it would not be recorded by witnesses and made “viral”. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/37 "2023-05-05T18:26:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In addition, that says he was ‘throwing garbage’. I don’t know what was in the particular garbage (presuming that he was actually throwing it), or if he’d brought it with him or found it already on the train; but most items that would be covered by that term don’t strike me as life-threatening to have thrown at you. Messy, annoying, and worth getting arrested for, yes. Worth being strangled to death for? Nope. Have you ever been the victim of a violent crime? It’s going to be really difficult to say how one feels about what happened unless you were on that subway car and had a first hand observation of how threatening his behavior was. I agree some crazy person yelling or even throwing trash seems to not quite meet the thresh-hold for taking his life. But for those people who took action in the subway car there is no knowing at this point how scared they were at the time and how concerned they were that things were going to escalate beyond throwing stuff and actually start harming people. The choke-hold guy evidently went way to far and over the line, but scared people are going to act on that fear, especially in an enclosed space. In NYC, especially, I can see how people don’t want to wait to see what happens - the idea of just sitting quietly and waiting for the situation to end is what the 911 hijackers counted on. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/38 "2023-05-05T18:27:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Twitter post from the Daily News. Yes, please, considering that maybe a dozen other varied sites I checked didn’t mention it. Is the [New York Post](https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/manhattan-da-mulling-charges-against-vigilante-in-subway-death/amp/) better? _“Police previously said he had been threatening other riders and throwing garbage at them.”_ I don’t want to be killed by a chokehold for committing assault and battery, and by a strange coincidence I don’t go around committing assault and battery. I also don’t want anyone to assault me or batter me, and by a strange coincidence am entirely willing to consider applying a chokehold to someone who, y’know, assaults and batters. Why people care more about punishing the guy who interrupts a crime than the guy who commits a crime interests me a little, but not much. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/39 "2023-05-05T18:30:17Z")
Interrupting a crime by killing them is a pretty big deal. Even if the person killed is Black. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/40 "2023-05-05T18:30:39Z")
His color doesn’t interest me. His crime does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=3)