# Increasingly, people are being killed over smaller and smaller things **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 5, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613 "2023-05-05T14:21:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/81 "2023-05-06T00:18:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Difference is, now we have members of the public agreeing that it was a good idea and even applauding them for it. And again, there is no evidence at all that this is new. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/82 "2023-05-06T00:22:31Z")
Right people used to proudly pose for pictures with lynched bodies. Nowadays they just wait to get invited to CPAC. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/83 "2023-05-06T01:34:08Z")
Yeah, America is doing just fucking great. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/84 "2023-05-06T12:36:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Of course I have a preconceived agenda: I may, while minding my own business, get assaulted or battered by someone like the guy who got killed, since he apparently went in for that sort of thing, and I ‘hurry’ to note that I’m against that; and I ‘hurry’ to add that I, too, may well slap a chokehold on a guy who so assaults and/or batters. I have had occasions in my life where I was “assaulted or battered” by someone else. My reaction wasn’t to kill the guy, it was to get away. Yes, I had to hurt the other person, but once they were no longer attacking me I went away, I didn’t stay there to make sure he (or she) was dead. That’s what’s wrong to me. Not the notion of self-defense (although I think whether that was _actually_ necessary here is debatable) but the _fifteen minutes_ the chokehold was maintained which seems use of force beyond what was necessary for self-defense. Not every self-defense situation calls for homicide (and I mean that in the technical sense: someone wound up dead, whether or not that was a crime is a different albeit related matter). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/85 "2023-05-06T12:42:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have had occasions in my life where I was “assaulted or battered” by someone else. My reaction wasn’t to kill the guy, it was to get away. I’m okay with getting away. I’m also okay with fighting back. I’m okay with lots of stuff; I’m not okay with committing assault and battery against folks who are doing nothing wrong, but I’m plenty okay with plenty of different responses to a guy who is committing assault and battery against folks who are doing nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/86 "2023-05-06T13:00:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m plenty okay with plenty of different responses to a guy who is committing assault and battery against folks who are doing nothing wrong. …the only person that I’m aware of in this case that committed assault, battery, then subsequently murder appears to be Daniel Penny. We’ve got it all on film. We watch Jordan Neely die. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/87 "2023-05-06T13:17:48Z")
On the Neely thing, TOWP, can you say what this specific guy did went beyond what was reasonable or necessary to address whatever was the initial problem? That once the takedown was done **at some point short of this he could and should have let go**? ISTM that part of the problem here is as was mentioned before by some of us, it’s one thing to stop a threat by giving someone a punch to the face, and unfortunately he suffers a fatal injury, and another to keep hitting them until they are unresponsive. The concept of “fight until you stop the threat” does not HAVE to mean “finish them off”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/88 "2023-05-06T13:29:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > On the Neely thing, TOWP, can you say what this specific guy did went beyond what was reasonable or necessary to address whatever was the initial problem? That once the takedown was done **at some point short of this he could and should have let go**? I think he did what he saw as reasonable, and at some point after immobilizing the guy it came down to a judgment call: _let him go, and maybe the threat resumes and maybe it doesn’t; or keep holding him, and maybe I’m taking this too far but maybe I’m not?_ And, if so, I’m willing to grant that he may have made an error; but I’m also willing to consider that it may have been a reasonable and excusable one. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/89 "2023-05-06T13:30:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The concept of “fight until you stop the threat” does not HAVE to mean “finish them off”. This was more, “Choke them until they stop struggling to breathe.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/90 "2023-05-06T13:34:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m willing to grant that he may have made an error …well, I mean, he did end up murdering him. I think “an error” is an extremely charitable way to describe what we all saw on that video. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/91 "2023-05-06T13:35:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean, he did end up murdering him. Killing ≠ Murdering. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/92 "2023-05-06T13:43:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > A man getting choked to death just for shouting loudly on a New York subway, a woman shot because she was in a car that pulled into the wrong driveway, a black teen shot for going to the wrong address in Kansas City, a family that was gunned down because they asked their neighbor to stop shooting his gun and making noise - the threshold for what “justifies” killing someone is getting incredibly low. > > I am not sure if this is true, I think instead that we have a media reporting bias. I mean, according the media, only attractive blonde girl kids get abducted, never black boys. Not only do you have media reporting bias without all the facts. You have the Liberal sensibilities of this board echoing those biases in a narrative of “violent ex-Marine looking for someone to kill uses minimal provocation to justify excessive (and possibly racially motivated) force to murder troubled (but apparently sweet and wonderful) homeless person.” It could also be written as “Veteran hero accidently kills homeless lunatic threatening NY subway riders waiting for NYPD to finally show up is sign of yet another ineffectual Democratic NYC mayor’s administration.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/93 "2023-05-06T13:55:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Killing ≠ Murdering. …murdering someone equals murder. And this wasn’t just a murder: it was a lynching. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/94 "2023-05-06T15:03:54Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > And I say this as a guy who has held violent people until they stopped being violent. On one occasion, that involved holding them until the cops arrived to take them into custody, so it’s not like I’m just talking out my ass here. And yet, I’ve never felt the need to kill anyone, or even punch them. Yeah that’s the thing, there is this sense of “all or nothing” where there is no reason to hold yourself back and once you are in a confrontation you dare not stop at a certain point. Then there’s also how you’ve got some out there who take offense at there even being any hint of looking for the nuance. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/95 "2023-05-06T15:19:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not okay with committing assault and battery against folks who are doing nothing wrong, but I’m plenty okay with plenty of different responses to a guy who is committing assault and battery against folks who are doing nothing wrong. Here’s NPR on what happened: > **[After Jordan Neely's death, homeless advocates blame NYC's 'dehumanizing'...](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/05/1174192713/jordan-neely-death-homeless-nyc)** > > The 30-year-old homeless man died from a chokehold by another passenger on the NYC subway. Advocates say the city's policies and rhetoric concerning people who are homeless are dangerous and false. > Neely, shouted that he was fed up, that he didn’t care if he went to prison and that he was ready to die, Vazquez wrote. Neely then took off his jacket and aggressively threw it on the subway-car floor, but did not appear to want to attack anyone, according to the journalist. Then, a white, 24-year-old passenger on the train put Neely in a headlock and held him in the position for 15 minutes, Vazquez said. Two other bystanders also stepped in to help the man restrain Neely. Neely was shouting. That’s all. That is not assault, and it is not battery. Not even at the misdemeanor level. I have seen no stories whatsoever saying that he injured anybody. > **[NY Penal Law § 120.00: Assault in the third Degree](https://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-penal-code-120-00-assault-in-the-third-degree.html)** > > Free Consultation - Our New York criminal lawyers have a combined 100+ years of legal and law enforcement experience. Our team includes former prosecutors from the District Attorney’s offices in New York City and Long Island, as well as law... > New York Penal Law includes three degrees of the crime of assault including [assault in the first degree] [second degree] [third degree](https://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-assault-in-the-third-degree.html). Assault in the third degree is the least serious of these three offenses. It is a class A misdemeanor and carries a possible prison sentence of up to one year in jail. Under New York Penal Code § 120.00 you will face a change of assault in the third degree if: > > - You intentionally physically injure another person, > - You injure a third party when you intended to injure another person, > - You recklessly injure another person, or > - You negligently injure another person using a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument. > > It is a class A misdemeanor. > **[Battery Charges | Criminal Lawyer in New York City](https://www.hochheiser.com/Violent-Crimes/Battery.aspx)** > > Contact a NYC criminal defense attorney at the Law Offices of Daniel A. Hochheiser today if you have recently been arrested or accused of battery. > Battery, defined as the physical striking, hitting or sometimes groping of another individual without their consent, is a punishable crime in New York City. Is it obnoxious to shout at people on the subway? Sure. Are some people going to be frightened by a shouting person on the subway? Very likely. Is strangling somebody to death for shouting a remotely reasonable response? Absolutely not. (For that matter, it’s not a remotely reasonable response to most actual assault and/or battery. This was fifteen minutes of strangling, it wasn’t an unlikely sudden death from knocking somebody down while trying to restrain them.) Is it reasonable for you to keep accusing Neely of assault and battery when there’s no evidence whatsoever that he was doing any such thing? Doesn’t seem so to me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/96 "2023-05-06T15:21:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > > Killing ≠ Murdering. > > …murdering someone equals murder. > > And this wasn’t just a murder: it was a lynching. At this point it’s officially a “homicide”, meaning “someone wound up dead”. Whether or not it was “murder” or “justifiable homicide” is something that is supposed to be determined in the court system. Mind you, I’m in the camp thinking the ex-Marine took things too far, but he deserves his day in court with evidence for and against just like anyone else. Just because I think this was NOT justifiable homicide doesn’t make it so because I am well aware that I do not have all the facts here. I do wonder if some of the rest of the folks in this thread have that some self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/97 "2023-05-06T15:30:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Neely was shouting. That’s all. > > That is not assault, and it is not battery. Not even at the misdemeanor level. I have seen no stories whatsoever saying that he injured anybody. Have you seen any stories whatsoever saying that he was not merely shouting, but throwing garbage at people? Because I’ve seen stories saying that, in addition to shouting, he was throwing garbage at people, which, y’know, assault, battery. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/98 "2023-05-06T15:37:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Have you seen any stories whatsoever saying that he was not merely shouting, but throwing garbage at people? Because I’ve seen stories saying that, in addition to shouting, he was throwing garbage at people, which, y’know, assault, battery. You’ve cited one such story and quoted from, without citing, another; both of them from sources I’m dubious about, and both of them saying only vaguely that he was throwing garbage; or possibly that he’d done so on some other occasion entirely. I checked about a dozen varied news sites, one of which I’'ve cited, and none of them said he was throwing anything at people. And even if he was, that’s neither assault nor battery by the New York definitions quoted above. And unless he was throwing something likely to hurt someone in a fashion that could plausibly have hurt them, it wouldn’t have been even attempted assault or battery. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/99 "2023-05-06T15:52:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And even if he was, that’s neither assault nor battery by the New York definitions quoted above. I see a bit quoted above stating that: “Battery, defined as the physical striking, hitting or sometimes groping of another individual without their consent, is a punishable crime in New York City.” If someone _physically_ throws garbage at _another individual_ without that individual’s _consent,_ then — what? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613/100 "2023-05-06T15:57:45Z")
Then your clothes _might_ get dirty. 🙄 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/increasingly-people-are-being-killed-over-smaller-and-smaller-things/983613.md?page=6)