# Indefensible position 1 Have Bad News for Atheists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080 "2015-05-15T00:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/81 "2015-05-15T19:57:11Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Nick Bostrum who I linked to, and whose argument this is is a professor of philosophy at Oxford University, and he seems to have provoked some serious thought and debate with it. > People who post condescending comments without bothering to check supporting links often find there sarcastic quips are nowhere near as clever as they thought. Your use of Nick Bostrum shows you are using another human to make your point, so your belief in God is just a belief in an another human. Who created the place for God to be, and who decided that God exists? it is a fact that it came from the mind of another human. If God is a being then God would need a place in which to exist. The Bible itself is contradictory in it’s description of the God they write about. Truth can’t be contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/82 "2015-05-15T19:57:38Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > "a public discussion with Neil deGrasse Tyson, String Theory Physicist, Dr. James Gates, stated that he found self-correcting computer error code embedded within the fundamental structure of String Theory, which made him “question if (he) was living in the Matrix.” > > [Simulation hypothesis - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis) I did listen to the presentation and Dr. James Gates acknowledged that this is still at theoretical levels, coming with a test to show that he is correct is not here yet. As it is with a lot of string theory BTW. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/83 "2015-05-15T20:11:54Z")
According to the Psalmist all are gods. Jesus used this in John 10 to show why he called God his father. In olden days the word God didn’t mean the same as it does today, it was some one (or something) that had great power, hence the sun Gods, thunder , and lightening Gods and the Pharaohs could claim they were Gods. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/84 "2015-05-15T20:15:46Z")
I have only been registred here for a few years but the one thing that has stuck to me is that matter and anti matter cancel each other out. When I heard that for the first time my view on a supreme being instantly changed into believing we are a simulation and our reality is only ours and possibly the universes which is also nothing but a simulation. I don’t see how it could be any other way. I also don’t see why it really matters at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/85 "2015-05-15T20:26:11Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Me neither. On the other hand, I am no Jim Kirk. I will be one of the guys bowing down to our “good enough for government work,” God, and if JTK wants to come along, apply some Kirk Fu, and nuke God’s temples with phasers from orbit (it’s safer that way.) than that will just be fine with me. I’ll give up the Dicaprio worship and move on to worshipping someone or something more worthwhile… Like George Clooney. Or Jim Kirk. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/86 "2015-05-15T22:09:36Z")
If all of this proves anything, it certainly doesn’t prove that Leonardo diCaprio is God; it proves that _I_ am God. I know that I have self-awareness because I directly experience it–_cogito ergo sum_ and all that–which would hardly be necessary for me to fulfill my role in some hypothetical Leonardo diCaprio-centric simulation–it’s not like Leonardo and I have ever even had any direct interaction, so there’s no need for me to be even a remotely convincing NPC, let alone a program fully capable of passing the Turing test. Frankly I have no idea why I had Them simulate some of you people. As soon as I wake up, I’m demanding my money back and giving this game a _terrible_ review on the OmniNet. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/87 "2015-05-16T01:04:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, yes, we all saw _The Matrix_. It failed to establish that Keanu Reeves is God. Jesus, though. He stands a good chance. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/88 "2015-05-16T02:25:01Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have only been registred here for a few years but the one thing that has stuck to me is that matter and anti matter cancel each other out. When I heard that for the first time my view on a supreme being instantly changed into believing we are a simulation and our reality is only ours and possibly the universes which is also nothing but a simulation. I don’t see how it could be any other way. I also don’t see why it really matters at this point. How do you get to that conclusion from the mutual annihilation of matter and antimatter? The two concepts seem to have nothing to do with each other. (Now, some people have said that the presence of polarized forces – negative and positive electric charge, north and south magnetic poles, matter and anti-matter – imply an underlying duality to the cosmos, and that other, greater, metaphysical polarities are to be expected: good and evil, God and Satan, etc. But that’s merely philosophizing from analogy.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/89 "2015-05-16T02:38:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (Now, some people have said that the presence of polarized forces – negative and positive electric charge, north and south magnetic poles, matter and anti-matter – imply an underlying duality to the cosmos, and that other, greater, metaphysical polarities are to be expected: good and evil, God and Satan, etc. But that’s merely philosophizing from analogy.) How do those people explain the Avengers or Justice League? If good guys are manifestations of one side of the duality of the magnetic pole, shouldn’t they repel each other? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/90 "2015-05-16T04:17:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How do those people explain the Avengers or Justice League? If good guys are manifestations of one side of the duality of the magnetic pole, shouldn’t they repel each other? You really have not followed the history of unrest in the group so typical of Marvel titles? It is hard to remember any member of the Avengers that has not resigned at least once from the group. But, they get over it very quickly. Yes, even[Hawkeye.](https://comiclists.wordpress.com/2015/05/15/and-i-really-mean-it-this-time-guys-guys/) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/91 "2015-05-16T04:27:15Z")
Superheroes are unstable, and switch polarity back and forth, sort of like nucleons. They also die and come back to life with remarkable frequency. Also – and this is DC comics canon – the existence of superheroes causes the presence of supervillains. So we not only have duality, but entanglement! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/92 "2015-05-16T12:13:46Z")
I never got why people proposing these flights of fancy say"a simulation indistinguishable from reality ". If we are in a simulation we have no clue what reality is. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/93 "2015-05-16T12:52:33Z")
Interesting OP. Why does the simulation require conscious, self-aware humans? Don’t the sim humans need only behave that way, reacting as a conscious human would? Leo doesn’t care, does he? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/94 "2015-05-16T13:21:13Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Interesting OP. Why does the simulation require conscious, self-aware humans? Don’t the sim humans need only behave that way, reacting as a conscious human would? Leo doesn’t care, does he? If you don’t have 5 billion simulated human minds filling the world then the supermodel sex seems kinda fake. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/95 "2015-05-16T15:48:44Z")
Another problem with the simulation hypothesis: It’s irrelevant how many simulated worlds there are. What actually matters is how many people-years of simulation there are. Even if we could create computer simulations advanced enough to contain self-aware entities, we probably wouldn’t simulate an entire world for thousands of years. It’d probably be enough for our purposes (whatever those purposes might be) to simulate only a few thousand individuals to full detail, with other individuals simulated to less and less detail the further they are from the main core, and with the simulation only running a few decades at most, not for the thousands or millions of years of full human history. So even though there might be more simulated worlds than real ones, there are likely to be more real people than simulated ones, and so any given person who asks the question “am I a simulation?” ought to answer “Probably not”. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/96 "2015-05-16T16:24:42Z")
> [@buckgully](#): > > In other words, it’s simulations all the way down. Wait, I thought it was [turtles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down). 😕 > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I might buy that game or I might prefer to buy the one with the orcs. Currently simulated worlds with orcs are millions of times more popular than simulated worlds with office workers. Therefore I am not living in a simulation. When Martin Freeman hosted _Saturday Night Live_, there was a skit where the office Bilbo worked in was staffed by characters and creatures from Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/97 "2015-05-16T16:55:22Z")
A simulated universe with orcs in it would be indescribably horrible. Just look at the last three Hobbit movies. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/98 "2015-05-16T17:18:36Z")
The thing that’s wrong with this world is not that people make arguments like the OP. It’s that anyone gives a shit about the question in the first place. I find all of these philosophical “proofs” of God to be utter timewasting bullshit that don’t actually mean anything outside of their carefully constructed philosophical framework. It’s not reality. It’s people with too much time on their hands doing things that are neither necessary nor relevant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/99 "2015-05-16T17:19:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The thing that’s wrong with this world is not that people make arguments like the OP. It’s that anyone gives a shit about the question in the first place. > > I find all of these philosophical “proofs” of God to be utter timewasting bullshit that don’t actually mean anything outside of their carefully constructed philosophical framework. It’s not reality. It’s people with too much time on their hands doing things that are neither necessary nor relevant. The simulator made you think that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080/100 "2015-05-16T17:33:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The simulator made you think that. I keep waiting for him to move me to the pool and erase the ladder. That’s the kind of god I’d get stuck with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indefensible-position-1-have-bad-news-for-atheists/720080.md?page=6)