# Independent Scotland's name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733 "2014-09-17T14:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Axton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@Axton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/1 "2014-09-17T14:29:27Z")
Hello, long time reader, first time poster. I’ve been thinking about this question for a while, Scotland votes in a referendum tomorrow (September 18) to decide if they want to secede from the United Kingdom and become an independent country, and there’s been talk about in the case Scotland leaves the UK, would Great Britain change their flag or be renamed. But Scotland was historically Gaelic speaking, which IIRC was derived from the Celtic peoples that inhabited Britain (then Britannia) before the Anglo-Saxons invaded in the fifth century that drove the Celts out of what’s now England. If the Scots are technically descended from the original inhabitants of Britain, shouldn’t they have claim over the name “Britain” if Scotland becomes independent? I’m not sure when the name “Britain” originated, but it is borrowed from the Roman name for the island “Brittania”. What did the Celts call the island before the Romans arrived? Sorry if I offended anyone with such a non-PC question, or any ignorance on the history of the region. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/2 "2014-09-17T14:40:36Z")
I can’t speak to the history question you’re asking, but the policy of the nationalist SNP in Scotland is that the name of an independent Scotland will be…“Scotland”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/3 "2014-09-17T15:09:28Z")
The Gaelic word for Scotland is “Alba.” While there is a great deal of push in Scotland for promotion of Scottish Gaelic, very few Scots can actually speak it and the number of Scots who claim it as a first language would not fill a high school assembly. Changing Scotland’s name to something Gaelic would make less practical sense than changing Canada’s name to “Jianada” to accommodate its Mandarin speakers. One could actually make the case that Scotland is the most thoroughly English-speaking country in the entire world. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/4 "2014-09-17T15:19:58Z")
“Britain” comes ultimately from the name that the pre-Saxon, pre-Roman people who inhabited the country had for themselves, although we don’t know exactly what that name was. They were Celts. Because the name attached to the people and not the land, and the people migrated from time to time, it has been associated with various places. When the Romans referred to _Britannia_ they meant an area corresponding roughly to present-day England and Wales, but much later on “Great Britain” emerged as a name for the entire Ireland, in contrast to “Little Britain” or “Lesser Britain” or sometimes just “Britain”, which could refer either to Brittany (in north-west France, named for the same people) or Wales. Nowadays “Britain” is used semi-formally by the UK government to refer to the UK, and “British” is the adjective that refers to the UK. I don’t think “Britain” ever referred to just Scotland. The Scots Gaelic (and Irish Gaelic) name for Scotland is _Alba_. The name “Scotland” comes from _Scotia_, which in turn comes from _Scoti_, the name applied by the Romans to those who spoke Gaelic. Initially _Scotia_ predominantly referred to Ireland, but later it came to be applied exclusively to the Gaelic-speaking parts of Scotland. As PaulParkhead points out, the Scottish Government’s proposal is the formal name of the independent sovereign Scottish state will be “Scotland” in English, and “Alba” in Gaelic. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/5 "2014-09-17T15:26:44Z")
The Scots are comparatively late arrivals in Britain, having invaded from Ireland in the 5th century and taking over what is now Scotland from the Celts, Picts and Angles who were living there already. I can’t see how they’d have any special claim to the name Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/6 "2014-09-17T15:53:21Z")
It is common to see imitation Car international plates in Scotland (avoiding GB plates) that say either Alba or Ecosse. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/7 "2014-09-17T16:56:36Z")
Considering they called themselves Scotland before the union and Scotland while in the union, why would you think they would change now? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/8 "2014-09-17T17:04:11Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > “Britain” comes ultimately from the name that the pre-Saxon, pre-Roman people who inhabited the country had for themselves, although we don’t know exactly what that name was. We have a pretty good idea. It was probably something like “Pretani,” still used in Welsh as Prydain, and having gone from Brythonic \> Greek \> Latin \> English, as “Britain.” Edit: Also in Irish as Cruithni, which despite appearances is cognate. The people of Scotland, however, may be descendants of the original inhabitants in a genetic sense, but not in a linguistic sense, and in a cultural sense about as much as the English. The English and Irish both came to Scotland in the early medieval period (maybe Late Roman, depends on what data you’re using). The original Picts (north) or Britons (South) were either killed, assimilated, or exiled. The Norse were also around for about a thousand years. So, as said above, in English, “Scotland,” in Gaelic, “Alba.” And just for the misinformation in the thread: The Gaels of Scotland are Celts. So were the Picts and the Britons their ancestors supplanted. In the pre-modern history of the island of Britain, only the Norse / Normans, English, and Romans\* were not Celtic. \*Well, some of them: a lot of Romans in Britain would have been from Gaul. Edit: “Celts” is not an ethnic group. It’s a linguistic grouping, and presumably all the Celtic-speaking groups in ancient Britain and Ireland were culturally similar. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/9 "2014-09-17T17:09:41Z")
So is “Caledonia” a Latinization of “Celt land”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/10 "2014-09-17T17:11:51Z")
Quoth the great Sean Connery: “I have a homeland I have not seen for too long.” “Oh, you mean Ireland?” “SCOTLAND, for God’s sake!” “I’m messin’ with you, man.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/11 "2014-09-17T17:12:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So is “Caledonia” a Latinization of “Celt land”? Not even close. It’s a Latinization of the territory of the Caledones, which is based on the root caled- “hard” (so probably in the sense of “hardy”). Edit: the word “Celt” was never used for the people of the British Isles in ancient times. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/12 "2014-09-17T17:17:05Z")
I hope they change it to: SCOTLAND, FUCK YUU!!! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/13 "2014-09-17T17:19:59Z")
“If it’s not Scottish, it’s CRAP!” ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/14 "2014-09-17T19:22:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > As PaulParkhead points out, the Scottish Government’s proposal is the formal name of the independent sovereign Scottish state will be “Scotland” in English, and “Alba” in Gaelic. Are they really going for just “Scotland”/“Alba”, or would it be “Kingdom of Scotland”/“Rìoghachd na h-Alba”, given that they’re apparently proposing to keep the monarchy? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/15 "2014-09-17T20:15:00Z")
I vote Nova Scotia! ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/16 "2014-09-18T01:04:55Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Are they really going for just “Scotland”/“Alba”, or would it be “Kingdom of Scotland”/“Rìoghachd na h-Alba”, given that they’re apparently proposing to keep the monarchy? It’s to be just “Scotland”. The draft _Scottish Independence Bill_ which the Scottish Government has published provides in cl.5(1) that . . . “The name of the State, by which it is to be known formally, is Scotland.” The explanatory notes provided by the Scottish Government make it clear that they considered a more descriptive formal name which would incorporate some reference to the form of government, but that they elected to follow the Irish precedent and simply adopt the name by which the country is already widely known. (The name of the Irish state is “Ireland”.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/17 "2014-09-18T04:13:21Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > (The name of the Irish state is “Ireland”.) Technically, just _Ire_ in Irish (Éire). The _-land_ is for the benefit of English speakers. And in Gaelic, Scotland would be the nice three-syllable _Alba_ (the third one is the invisible vowel between the /l/ and the /p/, which latter is spelled \. I really hope Gaelic becomes manditory!). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/18 "2014-09-18T13:14:03Z")
> [@Axton](#): > > But Scotland was historically Gaelic speaking, which IIRC was derived from the Celtic peoples that inhabited Britain (then Britannia) before the Anglo-Saxons invaded in the fifth century that drove the Celts out of what’s now England. Er… depends on how you define “historically”. For quite a few centuries the lowlands spoke a variation of English known as “Scots” or “Old Scots” which is still around and it was the highlands/islands that spoke Gaelic. Sure, a lot of lowlanders are “English” in ancestry but they’re Scottish, just as a lot of people in English are “Norse” or “German” in ancestry but they’re actually English. It’s not just about genes, it’s also language and culture. > [@](#): > > If the Scots are technically descended from the original inhabitants of Britain, shouldn’t they have claim over the name “Britain” if Scotland becomes independent? The Celts, which includes Celtic Scots, were not the _original_ inhabitants of Britain, they displaced earlier people such as the Picts. (Perhaps more accurately, invaded and intermarried/assimilated those that weren’t killed) > [@WotNot](#): > > The Scots are comparatively late arrivals in Britain, having invaded from Ireland in the 5th century and taking over what is now Scotland from the Celts, Picts and Angles who were living there already. I can’t see how they’d have any special claim to the name Britain. The Scots that came over from Ireland were also Celts. I’m not sure where people get this notion that they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/19 "2014-09-18T13:58:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Celts, which includes Celtic Scots, were not the _original_ inhabitants of Britain, they displaced earlier people such as the Picts. (Perhaps more accurately, invaded and intermarried/assimilated those that weren’t killed) The Picts were also Celts. I’m not sure where people get this notion that they weren’t. And don’t forget the British (Brythons), who inhabited southern Scotland before the Gaelic invasion from Ireland and were there until the 11th century, speaking a language akin to Welsh and Cornish. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733/20 "2014-09-18T16:12:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Scots that came over from Ireland were also Celts. I’m not sure where people get this notion that they weren’t. Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply they weren’t. I was trying to distinguish between the invading Scottish Celts, and the already-resident Brythonic Celts and Pictish Celts, and making a mess of it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independent-scotlands-name/698733.md?page=2)