# Independents: What do you think of Palin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951 "2008-09-04T06:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/141 "2008-09-07T23:06:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’ve got to disagree here. As I’ve mentioned before, family friends have a son who’s severely mentally disabled / autistic and I know how much it has affected them. Abortion would have been much the easier option. But it’s a personal choice. Some people have a much more casual attitude to abortion than others. Most people do not regard abortion as an “easy option.” and there’s nothing heroic about having a Downs Syndrome baby. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/142 "2008-09-07T23:09:39Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Sure, I’l take that challenge. Now, don’t pretend that I’m stupid enough not to know where you think you’re going to go with this – I saw your other thread. But the facts remain that **during Barack’s tenure** at that organization, all of the above was certainly accomplished. What has happened since his departure may not have been the long-term results he would have liked to have seen, but that doesn’t mean that he accomplished nothing (which you are clearly implying), or that it was not worth the effort even if the results were less than desirable. You’re welcome. No, I’m not ‘going anywhere’ with this. Let’s take it to the Obama Community Organizing thread to avoid hijacking this one. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/143 "2008-09-07T23:26:01Z")
Edit - never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/144 "2008-09-07T23:27:15Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Edit - never mind. You don’t really give a shit about the answer, so why are you asking? ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/145 "2008-09-08T09:13:35Z")
Voted for Reagan. Appointed to USMA by a republican Congressman. Would like ot have had the opportunity to vote for McCain in 2000, but lived in a closed primary state. Voted for Clinton twice. Voted for against Bush twice. Was unlikely to vote for McCain this year before his selection of running mate, though I still admire many things about him. 1. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is fully qualified to be Vice President. 2. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is not fully qualified to be President. Then again, I do not think either of our last 2 Presidents were fully qualified for the office on the day they were elected. My idea of “qualified” clearly is not shared by the electorate of either party. 3. Sarah Palin makes me even less likely to vote for McCain. I cannot now conceive of a likely scenario that would have me vote for McCain/Palin. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/146 "2008-09-08T09:38:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You don’t really give a shit about the answer, so why are you asking? I do care - I removed my post in response to **Sam Stone** ’s comment. Now, are you actually interested in debate? You’ve made up your mind, and are actively hostile to those who might differ - your post above is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/147 "2008-09-08T11:27:14Z")
I’ve been registered Independent for many years now but have at one time or another been registered both Democrat and Republican (I even voted for Bob Dole, although I can’t remember why anymore). Early on in the campaign I thought McCain had a lot of potential to drag the GOP out of the mire the neocon wing had buried it up to the eyebrows in, but as the campaign progressed I watched him slide slowly but inexorably to the right until he’s become the shell of the man he once was in order to curry favor with his party. His choice of VP was going to be a big test of character from my point of view. If he really wanted change, he’d go for someone more centrist and less of a party dogmatic. If he wanted to pander to the extreme right he’d go for the religious right. I guess I got my answer there. Let me state for the record that (for voting purposes) I don’t care about her family issues. I do care about the extent to which her religious views affect her policy decisions, particularly with regard to creationism and abstinence-only sex ed, and remarks like her “right with God” one do not inspire confidence. I also care about her actual record in government. I assume you’ve all seen [Anne Kilkenny’s letter](http://www.snopes.com/politics/info/kilkenny.asp) about Palin. While I generally take any such letters circulating around the internet with a Gibraltar-sized grain of salt, this one includes enough caveats and positive points to preclude immediate dismissal. Of particular concern are the following points which, if proved true, would make me seriously worried about having her as Vice President: > [@](#): > > During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign. > > Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative.” During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation (1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they benefited residents. > > The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was still in litigation 7 yrs later — to the delight of the lawyers involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing. > > While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office redecorated more than once. So - she had to hire a city administrator because (for whatever reason) she wasn’t doing a good job as mayor of a town of roughly 5,000 residents, and her money management skills are questionable and frankly reminiscent of the current US administration (I thought the GOP were supposed to be the frugal ones?). If she can’t run a small town properly, how could she run one of the biggest countries in the world? There are also the personality-related allegations: > [@](#): > > She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the basis of who proposed them. > > […] > > At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal — loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda… Again, the overtones are too close to the worst sins of the Bush White House - cronyism and the emphasis on loyalty over competence. Not a good recipe for the rest of the country. So my answer to the OP is that no, I don’t like Sarah Palin and if the stories told about her and her administrations are even partially true I would not consider her fit to be VP, let alone President. By the by, Obama’s choice of Biden has not exactly set my soul on fire either. I had hoped for him to balance his own relative inexperience with a policy heavyweight and in this I suppose I got what I wished for. But Biden is annoying, has a tendency to run at the mouth and frankly has zero charisma. I think the best thing Obama could do at this point is to sit on him. And for the record there’s nothing wrong with the University of Idaho or any other state school (says the Penn State grad). If you’d said Bob Jones University I might have had another opinion. Oh, and I think Margaret Thatcher should sue whomever compared Palin to her. Next to the Iron Lady, Palin’s pitbull looks like a chihuahua - small, yappy, irritating and insignficant. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/148 "2008-09-08T11:45:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Excellent that we’ve found someone who knows about this. Could you tell us some specifics of how Obama has helped people? I mean, in terms of actual results. > > Thanks. Yes, He worked hard to help people get homes, tried to inspire boys and men to live up to their responsibilities, fought for right to work and get jobs. If you look at his web site and ask them they can give you a direct line to him. That is why he was elected to the senate in Illinois. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/149 "2008-09-09T20:11:53Z")
1 and 2. No. 1. Not that there was much chance of me voting for McCain 2008 anyway, but this has completely closed the door on the idea. I’d definitely vote third-party now. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/150 "2008-09-09T20:15:49Z")
> [@Spiritus\_Mundi](#): > > 1. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is fully qualified to be Vice President. > > 2. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is not fully qualified to be President. I don’t see how it’s possible for those statements to both be true. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/151 "2008-09-09T20:44:27Z")
Obama is going to get my vote as a last man standing type deal. I preferred Clinton and McCain over him, but I’ve been turned off by their pathetic and tiresome campaign attacks. Obama seems to be more focused on the issues, and has a much better statesman look around him. Plus, his positions on the issues more closely match mine. (1) When I first read about Palin I immediately thought pander pick, and boy was I right. She is on this ticket because she (a) has a vagina, (b) has 5 kids, and © is thought of to be pretty. Of course she has the conservative credentials to back that up, but there are probably a dozen republicans that you could say the same thing about. For example, on paper Jindal is much more qualified, but obviously he didn’t get the election. If he had been a “hockey mom” instead of an Indian man, he would be on the ticket. (2) Her speech at the convention was pathetic. Her “down home folksy talk” scores her no points with me, and the way she brought her family really bugged me. The attacks on Obama were childish and flat out lies in many cases. (3) It bugs me that being “Joe six pack” helps you get votes. Do you want “Joe six pack” operating on your heart, engineering airplanes, or designing sky scrapers? Of course not. You want an expert, and the best in the field. You want the Princeton educated Rhodes scholar. Why should President be any different. (4) When she talks, it makes me want to punch her in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/152 "2008-09-09T20:46:41Z")
For the life of me, that third point completely confuses me. Why do we want “people just like me” running the country? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/153 "2008-09-09T20:54:21Z")
(5) The “loyalty test” firings as mayor really bug me, especially the Police Chief. Reminds me way too much of Bush’s Justice Department. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/154 "2008-09-09T20:58:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > (5) The “loyalty test” firings as mayor really bug me, especially the Police Chief. Reminds me way too much of Bush’s Justice Department. There was no Loyalty Test. :rolleyes: There was also no “book bannings”. Nor was “the librarian” “fired”. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/155 "2008-09-09T21:03:40Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > For the life of me, that third point completely confuses me. Why do we want “people just like me” running the country? Reinforces the belief that anyone can be president. Plus if they’re “like me,” then they automatically understand what it’s like to be me and will certainly have a grasp of my issues and what I want. Quite simple really. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/156 "2008-09-09T21:12:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But Biden is annoying, has a tendency to run at the mouth and frankly has zero charisma. I’m totally biased, because I like him a lot, but I think [Joe Biden has tons of charisma](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaroadblog/gG5J9q). And he’s freaking brilliant, too. I just love a man with a great mind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/157 "2008-09-09T22:02:43Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Reinforces the belief that anyone can be president. Plus if they’re “like me,” then they automatically understand what it’s like to be me and will certainly have a grasp of my issues and what I want. Quite simple really. Right, but does everyone think that they’re smarter than they actually are? I’ve talked to a lot of people that wouldn’t want someone “like them” to be in control. Look where it’s got us for the last 8 years. I want the best and brightest out there leading us. So, yeah…someone like me. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/158 "2008-09-09T22:04:49Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’m totally biased, because I like him a lot, but I think [Joe Biden has tons of charisma](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaroadblog/gG5J9q). And he’s freaking brilliant, too. I just love a man with a great mind. 🙂 Just after he was announced as the vice presidential nominee, we had a conference call with Joe Biden. That was a really nice perk and really nice to hear what he had to say. Essentially, it was him pretty much being fired up that he’s on board and telling us that he’s going to be working as tirelessly as we are to make our goal a reality. Wasn’t even very verbose, either. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/159 "2008-09-09T22:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Spiritus Mundi > > > > 1. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is fully qualified to be Vice President. > > > > 2. Sarah Palin, from what I have read, is not fully qualified to be President. > > I don’t see how it’s possible for those statements to both be true. It’s very simple, the two offices are not identical. Some people may choose to view the sole relevant criterion office #1 to be qualification for office #2 on day -120. But I do not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951/160 "2008-09-10T03:50:01Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’m totally biased, because I like him a lot, but I think [Joe Biden has tons of charisma](http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaroadblog/gG5J9q). And he’s freaking brilliant, too. I just love a man with a great mind. 🙂 Charisma? I don’t know about Charisma, that’s more Obama’s dept. But Biden is very qualified, smart and (for a Senator) not all that rich. Great choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/independents-what-do-you-think-of-palin/461951.md?page=9)