Acsenray, while it is quite clear that there is a lot of “So what if you don’t want to come to India, we don’t need you” to truthseeker’s attitude, it was in response to something you blame him for doing - i.e generalising a personal experience. What’s worse, it’s generalising the personal experience of someone who has much less current personal experience with what’s relevant.
I’m all for listening to NRIs, and completely agree with you that they do have important contributions to make to the direction that India should take. They’re a large part, in fact, almost exclusively the only reason why India has the good reputation it does. But statements like “We don’t want to come back to India because it is such a shithole” does them no credit, and is not about to get them taken seriously by people who live in that shithole, don’t you think? There are far more constructive ways to criticise. To your credit, I never sense this attitude from you, your criticism is typically fair, and even in this case you are only reporting someone else’s viewpoint. But surely you see how that particular viewpoint is not at all helpful?
I don’t think that either I or Anaamika would be surprised at how much things are changing … for some people in some situations. That leaves a whole lot of other people behind. Don’t get the impression that I don’t know of anyone who is living a “non-traditional” lifestyle in India, because I do.
I know of a married man, estranged from his wife but not divorced, who has a more-or-less permanent partner, an unmarried woman whose own family is fully aware of the situation.
I know of a widow, left with sufficient funds to support herself and run her house as a boarding house for girls, who has two more-or-less permanent lovers, both married men, one or the other who might have to wait in the living room if their visits happen to overlap.
I know of a manager of an office of 15-20 people who is carrying on a more-or-less permanent relationship with his No. 2. Both are married with children, and both their spouses are aware of the situation. The office folk refer to the No. 2 by a term that translates to “big brother’s wife” (as a youngish supervisor, the boss is customarily addressed as "big brother).
I know of an adult gay man who hasn’t married – traditionally a gay man would be forced to marry a woman regardless of his preferences.
All these people seem to be getting along more or less alright.
So don’t think that this N.R.I. is oblivious of the variety of lives and the pace of change in India.
But I don’t make the mistake of thinking that particular personal knowledge of certain situations tells the whole story.
That doesn’t mean everything has changed for everyone. Take a trip to Delhi and everyone will warn women not to go around the city alone, to wear loose clothing, not to wear makeup, etc. That doesn’t mean that the majority of women face solid barriers and obstacles when it comes to making personal choices. That doesn’t mean that social pressure and family gossip don’t play an important role in influencing an individual’s life.
There are still huge problems in Indian society regarding women’s freedom, that can’t be denied.
So because someone else pissed in the thread you’re insistent on sinking to the same level? Good job that.
There’s no denying that there are many aspects, such as those you’ve highlighted in your moving post, that need improvement. I just want to say that the improvement is there. Just one, somewhat trivial example - I was looking for a house in Delhi not too long ago. The only flatmate I could find at the time was a female friend. I naturally expected this to be an issue with people. It wasn’t. Nobody batted an eyelid - not the property agents, not the punjabi landlord aunties, not the neighbours. If you read my earlier long post , I try and explain where I think the issue comes from - patriarchal society coming up against modernity. It’ll take a generation or so for attitudes to change. Have old people as a group anywhere ever changed the attitudes they grew up with? I’m hopeful that the change is coming, although as the frictions increase, it may even seem for a bit that some things are getting worse before they get better.
Actually, that’s exactly the opposite of what I was doing. In every case, I have set forth contrasts. In no way have I offered any single example as representing the entire truth about India. Nevertheless, each example offers a truth. In every case, I have said that there are important ways in which women have freedom and opportunities. But each is contrasted by another. The statement of my cousin, who believes that his daughters are better off not growing up in India is just one of those examples. It tells a truth about India.
Wrong on both counts. It is not generalizing his experience. It is offering his experience as a single data points. And there is nothing “less current” about that experience. It is as current as everyone else’s. This is not a person who is out of touch with what is happening in India now.
Whether or not N.R.I.s have any contributions to make is beyond my purview. What I was reacting to was the ad hominem discrediting of the experiences of N.R.I.s based solely on their status as N.R.I.s. And as I have said, all these observations about India are also reflected by Indians who have not left India.
To interpret anything I said to mean what you have written here is entirely within your (and TruthSeeker’s) imagination. This is the reflexive defensiveness that I speak of.
None among my Indian friends and family whose opinions I respect think of India as a “shithole.” They love India, they love going to India, the spend significant amounts of time in India. The vast majority of their closest family members are in India.
They see themselves as part of the Indian community. They have enormous hope for India, and they have enormous enthusiasm for its progress. But they also are smart people who are observant and rational, and they are sensitive to the things about India that are problematic. And the ongoing social limitations of being a woman in India are among those observations.
I have no portfolio to criticize, only to describe, and this one example is not an attempt to criticize but to serve as a data point to try to illustrate a very complicated situation.
Have I done so? Admitting a problem exists is the first step towards solving it. I entirely agree that the problem of women not being treated as equals exists. My post was an attempt to explain why the problem exists and occasionally takes on such extreme manifestations. Did you read/agree with the things I said? Did it give you the impression that I was denying that a problem exists?
This is pretty much the point I was trying to make by referring to “growing pains” and backlashes. The very fact that these things are happening might be a sign that things really are changing.
Look, rather than get bogged down by details, all I was trying to say was that the “We’re not going back to India” statement is not useful, and is liable to raise hackles(not mine, btw), even as a data point. Wouldn’t “India was a restrictive place for women, and from all we know, still seems to be” be just as good as a data point?
Oh, I’m in complete agreement with most of the things you’ve said.
That was only to him, and to others I can carry on a non-grunting, cavement conversation.
:halo: You mean, like Gandhi and Nehru?
Dear Acsenray,
As you know, there are crores of liberal people having daughters in India who can easily settle aboard if they wanted. But they do not feel the need to leave. In my view, if any NRI brought up in India says they do not want to come because they have daughters, he MUST have some different underlying reason which he doesn’t want to address perhaps the laziness about recreating the setup here, lack of enterprise, fear of failure or fear of facing the competition here? And honesty, its the first time I am hearing that excuse and the very opposite that people return to India BECAUSE they have young kids(especially young daughters) is quite common to hear - I am sure you know the reasons for that as well.
Regarding Live-in relationships, they are legal as per Indian Constitution, one is 100% entitled to help by police and law if needed . And if one is financially liberated, it is not that difficult to maintain one in present times here in India. That said, I understand Anaamika raises valid issues and its her choice that she doesn’t want to come. Most Justified because she wasn’t brought up in India.
and btw, you can pass off as Indian however fair or dark your skin is and Indian movies do have emancipated women characters - plenty of them. : - )
It’s nice to hear that truthseeker. And I say that with no sarcasm. It’s nice to hear my mother country is making strides of progress.
As to looking Indian, oh I could certainly pass, if I wore salwar kameez, but in American clothes I don’t look Indian at all. I have Indian people squinting at me curiously all the time. I do have a Punjabi nose, but apparently that’s not enough. 
This is not a sound inference. Your line of reasoning is completely fallacious. “Because there are people with daughters who don’t leave India, X must have some reason other than that.” No, sorry, that is wrong. The people who stay in India might have many different reasons for not leaving. Or maybe they simply weigh the factors in a way that leads them to a different conclusion than the conclusion that my cousin has drawn, but it does not mean that my cousin is covering up some laziness, lack of enterprise, or fear. Seriously, this is pathetic.
Actually, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be useful and why it should raise hackles. The point here is that there are a lot of things about Indian society that may make it disadvantageous to be a woman in India. The example of my cousin is merely that, an example, of a viewpoint about India that is not difficult to find among Indians, whether they have left India or not. The fact that it might “raise hackles” is actually part of the problem, in that in addressing social issues like these, there are a lot of Indians who will grab any straw to try to discredit criticism. Abhijit Mukherjee’s “dented and painted” is one example. The attempts to defame my cousin by TruthSeeker is another example.
It’s not useful because, for one, most people are not automatons without emotions, and for another, because, like you said, Indian society is not a monolith. There are some women in some situations that can and do make as much of their lives as anybody in a western setup. It is no doubt tougher for them than it is in the west. But the people who remove themselves to another country have avoided that particular struggle. And the statement “we’re not coming back, because we don’t like such and such about India” only serves to broadcast a “We got out, we got successful, but we still want to complain to those who actually face these issues on an ongoing basis” vibe to many people, truthseeker included. NRIs have other struggles of their own, and their lives are not automatically easy because they’re not in India, and they have a very valid viewpoint that needs to be heard, but they have forsaken the difficulties involved in living here. And NRIs do need to be sensitive about this when they give feedback. If for no other reason than they love their country and want their voices heard, not drowned out in nonsense nitpicks.
Btw, truthseeker, I do agree with Acsenray. It is not appropriate to decide that people are insincere in what they say. Especially when it is a very believable reason. Are you honestly trying to claim that life in India would be as easy or as free for a woman as it would in the west? That’s patently not true. It is definitely much harder. Women can still have great lives here, but it definitely needs more support from their families, friends, more loss of independence, and more putting up with nonsense that they shouldn’t have to. I’m just trying to say that I’m hopeful this is changing, not that it isn’t there, or isn’t significant.
IMO, it can’t be the deciding factor for a person brought up here. In such case, he is camouflaging his insecurities with this excuse. if he is given an easy, good paying and secure job or business, a good house in a decent locality, without making an effort for getting any of these, he WILL come if he wanted to come.
I am sure most of us Indians who have sisters and cousins here in India see them pursue career of their choice, dress the way they like, party, drink if they want, have boyfriends, dump one then have another, do whatever they like…n this happens dozens of cities.
In my last workplace, lots of people relocated back to India because they wanted to raise kids(specially daughters) in India. so many people that it had almost come a norm. and honestly this is the first time I am hearing someone brought up here say they wont come because they have daughters.
I believe you if you say so. they could also be staring because they see you as an attractive indian woman in a western outfit.
btw I know nothing about American women clothes but most city girls here do wear jeans and tops(can be sleeveless but covering their belly)…
And he’s trying to tell you your opinion is mistaken. And he is right. Like I said, women can live very fulfilling lives in India, but is there any doubt that it is harder to do so than in the west? None.
I have cousins and friends who go out, drink, party and have boyfriends in Delhi. But they have to lie to their parents and definitely their older relatives, they have to make sure their male friends drop them back home when the partying is done, they don’t like being in public places by themselves because they get leched at and have improper advances and comments made at them. To say that someone is lying or misrepresenting their real views when they say they don’t want to move back because they don’t want their daughters to face these issues is more than a little short-sighted. I think because you’re a guy you maybe don’t realise just how much difficulty women have in India, even though there are many positives to their lives as well.
A lot (90%+) of these problems can be solved just by avoiding public transport (mainly buses), your own car, autos, taxis, metro trains’ lady compartment etc are absolutely safe. shopping malls, colleges, workplaces etc - safe. And if she doesn’t lie to her family while being in the US, she should not have to lie to the same family here in India. and you talk as if Indian people listen n adhere to what their grandparents of older generation say - they don’t.
so, as I said earlier, in my view, this can’t be the **deciding **factor if the real desire (by all parties concerned ) is there n the effort required to relocate is there…
i’ve not been to India, but all your post did is to convince me that India is not safe. i mean if you, as a proponent, needs such a wide, encompassing disclaimer… there’s just no way a parent would choose such an environment for their daughters.
Why on earth not? Why can’t the relative independence and peace of mind of your female children be the deciding factor for someone? It most decidedly can be and it is. And to ignore something like that by saying, “It cannot be” is something we shouldn’t do. It is not the right way to approach the problem.
ETA: And of course you’re right, taking your own car, avoiding public transport, having male friends drop you off after partying, are ways by which you can avoid the problem. BUT avoiding a problem involves a mental and economic cost. And it is perfectly valid to not want to come back to India because you have to deal with that