# India leads the world in open defecation **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577 "2016-01-19T15:13:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/1 "2016-01-19T15:13:56Z")
After sending [this meme page](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/designated-shitting-streets-poo-in-the-loo) to my brother last week, he came back with [this depressing/disturbing documentary video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJgY2VSct0) about the problem, i.e. about half the people in India don’t use toilets to defecate. It’s mostly the poor, who don’t even _have_ toilets, or have very limited access to one, but it’s depressing that there’s not even any effort to organize where people defecate outdoors. It seems like it wouldn’t take much organization/money/labor to make a latrine here and there that could vastly improve the situation, but in the absence of even that, people continue to drop-and-squat in whatever random location suits them, resulting in vast sanitary minefields. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/2 "2016-01-19T16:47:32Z")
Yes. I hate to say it, but it’s pretty gross. I went to India a number of times in my teen years and it is awful, especially in Old Delhi and Calcutta. Calcutta was downright gross. That doesn’t even count the dogs, cows, pigs and goats, who all also poop wherever. It’s very sad. Such a wonderful amazing country, full of beauty, but ignorance is still predominant and as you say, poverty is rampant. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/3 "2016-01-19T16:50:21Z")
“we’re number two!! We’re number two!!” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/4 "2016-01-19T16:56:34Z")
Tom Arnold voice: Yeah, but who do they work for? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/5 "2016-01-19T17:01:44Z")
This needs to be a _Jeopardy_ question of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/6 "2016-01-19T17:49:57Z")
There’s a motto you want to inscribe on your Department of State stationary… ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/7 "2016-01-19T18:34:18Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > “we’re number two!! We’re number two!!” We’re number one in number two! ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/8 "2016-01-19T18:59:55Z")
I boarded a Gujarati cow-orker who was here temporarily for projects. Twice! I didn’t learn my lesson the first time. It is exceedingly difficult to tell an adult human being (let alone a coworker) that they’re using the bathroom incorrectly, then mime the correct method because their English is so bad you don’t want anything to get lost in translation. He still didn’t get it 100% (I don’t think he was ever going to stop squatting), but at least it stopped the soiled toilet paper from being left on the floor around the toilet, in the garbage can, on top of the toilet, etc. Completely different standards of hygiene. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/9 "2016-01-19T19:51:27Z")
And yet last year when India put a probe in orbit around Mars everyone here was oohing and cooing and praising their accomplishment. I dared to suggest they may have their priorities a bit off and should maybe address basic sewage first. You would have thought I suggested kicking puppies from the reactions I got. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/10 "2016-01-19T20:03:21Z")
They are trying. It’s not as though the government has just tossed its hands in the air and said, “Welp, clearly they’re never going to learn, let’s launch a probe to Mars.” The government has been trying to drag the country kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat. Not all people want to come. The country is still relatively young and there’s a good deal of corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/11 "2016-01-19T20:11:34Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > There’s a motto you want to inscribe on your Department of State stationary… One just needs to spin it a bit - like renaming the issue “Meal Recycling Initiative”. Now your letterhead reads “India, the world leader in open MRI!”. I shoulda been in advertising… ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/12 "2016-01-19T20:20:16Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > They are trying. It’s not as though the government has just tossed its hands in the air and said, “Welp, clearly they’re never going to learn, let’s launch a probe to Mars.” > > The government has been trying to drag the country kicking and screaming into the **century of the fruitbat**. Not all people want to come. The country is still relatively young and there’s a good deal of corruption. Bolded portion. Is there some deeper meaning to the phrase “century of the fruitbat”, or was that an autocorrect thing? Ah, NVM, a Discworld thing. I suppose it makes sense if you’ve read it. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/13 "2016-01-19T20:33:02Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > They are trying. It’s not as though the government has just tossed its hands in the air and said, “Welp, clearly they’re never going to learn, let’s launch a probe to Mars.” > > The government has been trying to drag the country kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat. Not all people want to come. The country is still relatively young and there’s a good deal of corruption. My only point, and I will leave it after this because I really don’t have that strong of an interest, is that if you have millions to spend to send up a space probe that really does nothing other than give you bragging rights, wouldn’t it be better to use those millions to build a sewer system in a city that could actually benefit many of your people? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/14 "2016-01-19T20:37:16Z")
Perhaps it’s part of a long term plan to fling feces into space. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/15 "2016-01-19T20:43:31Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > I boarded a Gujarati cow-orker who was here temporarily for projects. Twice! I didn’t learn my lesson the first time. It is exceedingly difficult to tell an adult human being (let alone a coworker) that they’re using the bathroom incorrectly, then mime the correct method because their English is so bad you don’t want anything to get lost in translation. > > He still didn’t get it 100% (I don’t think he was ever going to stop squatting), but at least it stopped the soiled toilet paper from being left on the floor around the toilet, in the garbage can, on top of the toilet, etc. Completely different standards of hygiene. Yuck. Sounds like the cow did the proper amount of orking. Some places have septic systems that can’t handle rougher waste like TP, so the garbage makes sense. The floor does not make sense, of course. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/16 "2016-01-19T20:50:49Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Yes. I hate to say it, but it’s pretty gross. I went to India a number of times in my teen years and it is awful, especially in Old Delhi and Calcutta. Calcutta was downright gross. That doesn’t even count the dogs, cows, pigs and goats, who all also poop wherever. > > It’s very sad. Such a wonderful amazing country, full of beauty, but ignorance is still predominant and as you say, poverty is rampant. So I guess the street food (that gets walked over by the flies) is not all that safe to eat?:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/17 "2016-01-19T21:37:38Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Ah, NVM, a Discworld thing. I suppose it makes sense if you’ve read it. Not really. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/18 "2016-01-19T22:00:53Z")
It’s not just a question of being unhygenic. In India, women who are forced to use open air toilets are at risk for being kidnapped and raped - [http://womennewsnetwork.net/2012/12/19/india-women-new-delhi-slum-toilets/](http://womennewsnetwork.net/2012/12/19/india-women-new-delhi-slum-toilets/) > [@](#): > > Each dawn brings the same battle for Sangeeta Devi. The simple act of defecation takes tactful planning for the 30-year-old. For Devi, a local community worker, it’s a matter of life or death. Devi, like the other women of her slum, lacks a toilet in her home. So she wakes up early when it’s still dark, walks toward the bushes on the edge of the slum and squats there to relieve herself. > > The daily humiliation is taking a toll on her dignity, she says. But open defecation is more than embarrassing. Often, men hide in the areas women commonly use to go to the bathroom, knowing that this is a position and time when they are vulnerable. > > “Once, a few men put a blanket over me and tried to kidnap me,” Devi says. “I shouted at the top of my voice, and somehow, I managed to escape. But everyone is not lucky like me.” Also, it’s important to note that there is a caste problem tied into this, as well. Traditionally, the open air toilets were cleaned by a particular branch of Untouchables, who manually picked up the feces and carried them off in leaky baskets balanced on their heads. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/25/india-caste-forced-clean-human-waste](https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/25/india-caste-forced-clean-human-waste) > [@](#): > > The Indian government should end “manual scavenging” – the cleaning of human waste by communities considered low-caste – by ensuring that local officials enforce the laws prohibiting this discriminatory practice, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. The government should implement existing legislation aimed to assist manual scavenging community members find alternative, sustainable livelihoods. > > The 96-page report, “Cleaning Human Waste: ‘Manual Scavenging,’ Caste, and Discrimination in India,” documents the coercive nature of manual scavenging. Across India, castes that work as “manual scavengers” collect human excrement on a daily basis, and carry it away in cane baskets for disposal. Women from this caste usually clean dry toilets in homes, while men do the more physically demanding cleaning of sewers and septic tanks. The report describes the barriers people face in leaving manual scavenging, including threats of violence and eviction from local residents but also threats, harassment, and unlawful withholding of wages by local officials. > > “Successive Indian government attempts to end caste-based cleaning of excrement have been derailed by discrimination and local complicity,” said Meenakshi Ganguly, South Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “The government needs to get serious about putting laws banning manual scavenging into practice and assisting the affected caste communities.” > > In 2014, Human Rights Watch interviewed more than 135 people, including more than 100 people currently or formerly working as manual scavengers, in the Indian states of Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Rajasthan, and Uttar Pradesh. Women who clean dry toilets in rural areas often are not paid cash wages, but instead as a customary practice receive leftover food, grain during harvest, old clothes during festival times, and access to community and private land for grazing livestock and collecting firewood – all at the discretion of the households they serve. In areas where “untouchability” practices are intact, food is dropped into their hands or thrown in front of them. It has to be said: open air toilets are not a poverty thing so much as a Hindu practice. It was a common feature among Hindu household for centuries and that’s why it’s so hard for India to change it. The Muslim communities in India are, on average, poorer and less educated than the Hindu communities. And yet, Muslim communities are more like to use toilets. As a result, Muslim children are healthier and more likely to survive than Hindu children. The original article discussing how open defecation leads to stunted childhood growth - > **[Open Defecation and Childhood Stunting in India: An Ecological Analysis of...](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0073784)** > > Poor sanitation remains a major public health concern linked to several important health outcomes; emerging evidence indicates a link to childhood stunting. In India over half of the population defecates in the open; the prevalence of stunting... Ars Tech followed that up with an article showing the specific differences in child mortality in India between the majority religious groups is largely attributable to open air defecation: > **[Open defecation solves the child mortality puzzle among Indian Muslims](https://arstechnica.com/science/2014/06/open-defecation-solves-the-child-mortality-puzzle-among-indian-muslims/)** > > Child mortality is lower among Muslims despite being poorer and less educated > [@](#): > > Using all those factors, statistical analysis revealed that open defecation may contribute to the difference in child mortality rates. “We show that the entire gap between Muslim and Hindu child mortality can be accounted for by a particular kind of sanitation externality,” wrote Spears and Michael Geruso, professor of economics at the University of Texas at Austin, in their working paper. They found that Muslims, regardless of income, were 20 percent more likely to use toilets than Hindus. > > More convincingly, the analysis showed that moving from a locality where everybody defecates in the open to a locality where no one does is associated with a larger difference in child mortality than moving from the bottom quintile of asset wealth to the top quintile. > > \ > > Could differences in open defecation be just one factor among other differences in general hygiene practices? Probably not. Spears and Geruso found no systematic differences among the religious groups when it came to hand washing or water purification techniques. > > It was important to be sure that there were no other systematic differences among religious practices of Hindus and Muslims that could have contributed. In “the rare places where Hindus are less likely to defecate in the open than Muslims,” Spears and Geruso found that the advantage reverses—child mortality among Hindus turns out to be lower than that among Muslims. > > The analysis also showed that Hindu households residing in villages with majority Muslim population experienced lower child mortality than Hindus living among other Hindus. The reverse also held true—Muslims living among Hindus had higher mortality rates than if they lived among Muslims. “This is consistent with the findings that it is not your own hygiene practices but that of your neighbors which matter most,” said Sandy Cairncross, a professor of environmental health also at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who has worked in India to increase toilet use. I don’t mean to be rude to the Hindus but the problem of open air toilets needs to be addressed more as a cultural problem than a poverty problem. And yes, of course - it is _also_ a poverty problem. Any country with a sizeable homeless population must face similar concerns. That line about your neighbor’s hygiene being a bigger problem than any one person’s hygiene is correct. A community’s health and waste management is very much a public concern. ---
**Author:** ![bb49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@bb49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bb49)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/19 "2016-01-20T04:48:55Z")
India also leads the world in the consumption of scotch. Hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577/20 "2016-01-20T05:33:19Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > And yet last year when India put a probe in orbit around Mars everyone here was oohing and cooing and praising their accomplishment. I dared to suggest they may have their priorities a bit off and should maybe address basic sewage first. > > You would have thought I suggested kicking puppies from the reactions I got. Governments can do more than one thing at a time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-leads-the-world-in-open-defecation/743577.md?page=2)