# India says 20 soldiers killed in border dispute **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 17, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829 "2020-06-17T04:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/1 "2020-06-17T04:14:21Z")
[… with China](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/indian-army-20-soldiers-killed-border-clash-china-200616172525853.html). This hurts my head: the border between India and China is in the fucking Himalayas. They engaged in sub-zero temperatures, at an altitude that many of us have never been (other than inside an airplane) over a matter of which of these mountaintops marks the boundary between India and China (Tibet, actually). This is hopefully going to be a minor incident, but these two most populous countries in the world both have those bright-flashy lanthanide-powered boomy things that have the potential to lead to some serious ugliness. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/2 "2020-06-17T04:35:06Z")
It seems like China has decided that all their disputes are going to be settled this year. so far they’ve boxed up millions of Muslims to parts unknown, threatened Hong Kong, sunk a Vietnamese fishing boat and now their NK puppet is blowing up the liaison building. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/3 "2020-06-17T04:43:22Z")
The Chinese know that Trump is too incompetent to build a strong coalition to contain them. Trump still has 7 months in office. I hope the world can wait him out. Or better yet if his black little heart gave out… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/4 "2020-06-17T04:44:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It seems like China has decided that all their disputes are going to be settled this year. > > so far they’ve boxed up millions of Muslims to parts unknown, threatened Hong Kong, sunk a Vietnamese fishing boat and now their NK puppet is blowing up the liaison building. Makes sense. The rest of the world is preoccupied with Covid, China itself has mostly locked Covid down, and the rest of the world is pissed at China anyway; more so than they’ve been in a long time. On top of that, Trump is president. If there were ever a time to purge the aggression out of one’s system, now would be the time for it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/5 "2020-06-17T09:41:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I > > so far they’ve boxed up millions of Muslims to parts unknown Yeah, on that issue the [Dollar store Nazis who run India these days have far exceeded China.](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india). And I am not kidding [about the Nazi part.](https://www.npr.org/2019/05/03/706808616/the-powerful-group-shaping-the-rise-of-hindu-nationalism-in-india). [Seriously.](https://theintercept.com/2019/09/21/howdy-modi-trump-anders-brevik/) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/6 "2020-06-17T11:36:26Z")
What I don’t get is that the soldiers were killing each other with fists, stones and bamboo spears. Didn’t these guys have guns? The whole thing just seems weird. There’s a lot we’re not hearing yet. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/7 "2020-06-17T11:50:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yeah, on that issue the [Dollar store Nazis who run India these days have far exceeded China.](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india). > > And I am not kidding [about the Nazi part.](https://www.npr.org/2019/05/03/706808616/the-powerful-group-shaping-the-rise-of-hindu-nationalism-in-india). > [Seriously.](https://theintercept.com/2019/09/21/howdy-modi-trump-anders-brevik/) China and India are positively benign powers when it comes to dealing with minorities, Muslim or otherwise. Take a look at the great martial nation of Pakistan, the “fortress of Islam” and its glorious treatment of minorities: - [Slaughtered millions of people in Bangladesh](http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/) - mostly Hindus and many Muslims - Continues to undertake extremely violent [religiously-motivated cleansing](https://www.hudson.org/research/9781-cleansing-pakistan-of-minorities) of ethnic and religious minorities in the land of Pakistan - Gave the world an endless stream of the most violent terror organizations, such as [LeJ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashkar-e-Jhangvi), Taliban, [SeS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipah-e-Sahaba_Pakistan), which are dedicated to the complete extermination of the Shia Muslim minority in Pakistan Needless to say, Pakistan is one of the most violent and unsafe places for minorities of any stripe. Nevertheless, Pakistanis I have met tend to have a whole laundry list of gripes against India and the US (but not China, mind you). I guess when your country is a hellhole, and you are viciously persecuted with no recourse, you need to take it out on someone for sanity’s sake. Hence the US is the “great Satan” and India is “nazi”. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/8 "2020-06-17T11:51:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I don’t get is that the soldiers were killing each other with fists, stones and bamboo spears. Didn’t these guys have guns? > > The whole thing just seems weird. There’s a lot we’re not hearing yet. Both Indian and Chinese forces are under strict instructions to not fire at each other. This has been the case for decades. Border patrols on both sides do not carry firearms. That might change now, however. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/9 "2020-06-17T11:58:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It seems like China has decided that all their disputes are going to be settled this year. > > so far they’ve boxed up millions of Muslims to parts unknown, threatened Hong Kong, sunk a Vietnamese fishing boat and now their NK puppet is blowing up the liaison building. North Korea is not a puppet state. They’re their own brand of craziness ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/10 "2020-06-17T11:59:50Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > Both Indian and Chinese forces are under strict instructions to not fire at each other. This has been the case for decades. Border patrols on both sides do not carry firearms. That might change now, however. Okay. Still weird, but slightly more comprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/11 "2020-06-17T12:08:53Z")
They seem to have designs on all the Buddhist Kingdoms of the Himalayas. They took Tibet, now they’re after Ladakh, they already ‘claim’ Bhutan. And Nepal is mostly run by Maoists already, no invasion required. And I doubt the world will care any more than they did about Tibet. Lots of lip service, nothing more. It’s beyond heartbreaking to watch. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/12 "2020-06-17T13:19:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I don’t get is that the soldiers were killing each other with fists, stones and bamboo spears. Didn’t these guys have guns? > > The whole thing just seems weird. There’s a lot we’re not hearing yet. [Agreement between India and China 1996.](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/CN%20IN_961129_Agreement%20between%20China%20and%20India.pdf) > [@](#): > > ARTICLE VI > With a view to preventing dangerous military activities along the line > of actual control in the India-China border areas, the two sides agree > as follows: > (1) Neither side shall open fire, cause bio-degradation, use hazardous > chemicals, conduct blast operations or hunt with guns or explosives > within two kilometers from the line of actual control. This prohibition > shall not apply to routine firing activities in small arms firing rang This has been interpreted to mean neither side will carry firearms rights at the Line. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/13 "2020-06-17T13:43:14Z")
Though we produce awesome tech toys and probe the deepest secrets of the universe, the stark fact is that human nature will never change. We simply have far more sophisticated ways of oppressing and killing one another. We may very join our predecessors; Cro-magnon, Neanderthal, Homo Erectus, Australopithecine, etc, as yet another evolutionary dead end. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/14 "2020-06-17T13:44:31Z")
A clarification - neither side shall open fire _inside_ the 2 km zone, or _into_ the 2 km zone? Because technically speaking, a tank located 2.5 km from the border firing at anyone crossing is not opening fire “within two kilometers from the line of actual control”. The ordnance may be landing there, but it wasn’t fired there. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/15 "2020-06-17T15:23:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > A clarification - neither side shall open fire _inside_ the 2 km zone, or _into_ the 2 km zone? Because technically speaking, a tank located 2.5 km from the border firing at anyone crossing is not opening fire “within two kilometers from the line of actual control”. The ordnance may be landing there, but it wasn’t fired there. Within the 2 km zone, but things have never come to a point where tanks or artillery pieces would be used. Since 1962. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/16 "2020-06-17T18:37:12Z")
The fighting must have been intense and brutal for so many hardened soldiers to have been killed. Indian soldiers were reportedly unarmed, while the Chinese were armed with batons with embedded nails and other fancy melee weapons. Indian soldiers were reportedly outnumbered 55:300 by the Chinese. [PLA ‘Death Squads’ hunted down Indian soldiers](https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-death-squads-hunted-down-indian-troops-in-galwan-in-savage-execution-spree-say-survivors-2673347.html) > [@](#): > > The savage combat, with few parallels in the history of modern armies, is confirmed to have claimed the lives of at least 23 Indian soldiers, including 16 Bihar’s commanding officer, Colonel Santosh Babu, many because of protracted exposure to sub-zero temperatures the Indian Army said late on Tuesday. When push comes to shove, the PLA has proven to be no better than Pakistani terrorists, dragging away overpowered soldiers and then slaughtering them in cold blood. > [@](#): > > Large numbers of dead bodies, Indian military officials say, were handed over by the PLA on Monday morning — possibly men dragged away in the course of hand-to-hand fighting, and then killed. The mighty PLA may also have suffered casualties, but they are not telling: > [@](#): > > Beijing has issued no official statement on the numbers of casualties the PLA suffered in in the fighting, but the Indian Army claims it has intercepted military communication suggesting over 40 PLA soldiers may also have been killed or injured. Meanwhile US Intelligence says [35 Chinese troops also died](https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-06-16/dozens-killed-as-india-china-face-off-in-first-deadly-clash-in-decades), but I am not sure if this is not just US propaganda to embarrass China. I am not sure if satellite photos can tell the whole story about casualties. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/17 "2020-06-17T20:27:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Makes sense. The rest of the world is preoccupied with Covid, China itself has mostly locked Covid down, and the rest of the world is pissed at China anyway; more so than they’ve been in a long time. On top of that, Trump is president. > > If there were ever a time to purge the aggression out of one’s system, now would be the time for it. You know, China hasn’t really locked down this Covid thingy, right? They have something like 100 million people (officially) in lock down, and recently they have had an outbreak in Beijing that has them firing CCP officials and talking about military measures (all due to, supposedly, only around 100 new cases in a week and no new deaths :dubious:). So, I don’t think this is a case of the CCP having handled the Covid outbreak and using this chance to hammer everyone else not so lucky…at least, not solely. I think this is a case of a calculation being made by the CCP to both distract their own people from the myriad issues hammering them, including the supposed containment of Covid, AND what you are saying…figuring they are going to push as far as they can as hard as they can this year, while the world is distracted. Not sure how either of those will work out, as it seems the world might be less distracted than they think, at least I think the reaction in Hong Kong seems more than they were expecting. And I don’t think India is really all that distracted either wrt the incident in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/18 "2020-06-17T20:46:03Z")
I am sure it helps everyone quite a lot to be right there in the Kashmir neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/19 "2020-06-18T02:05:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I don’t get is that the soldiers were killing each other with fists, stones and bamboo spears. Didn’t these guys have guns? > > The whole thing just seems weird. There’s a lot we’re not hearing yet. That is fucking weird. Like I don’t get the point of all this. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829/20 "2020-06-18T02:39:36Z")
We skipped WWIII I guess and went straight to WWIV. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/india-says-20-soldiers-killed-in-border-dispute/855829.md?page=2)