Wait, you guys actually believe that the U.S. landed people on the moon?
<runs away>
You gotta cite for this big buddy or just a drive-by?
I know in the 1980’s, China had one of the best records in the world for commercial satelite launches.
As far as I know, Gordo didn’t have an Enemies List, though Richard Nixon did.
I apologize for my intemperate comments as well.
Wait, I’m on to you . . . . .
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there was no Straight Dope in 1968! 
But seriously Ladies and Germs, JFK got the American space program well underway before all of the turmoil of the late 60s broke loose.
Even so, I challenge anyone to prove to me that the United States had even close to as many domestic crisis in 1969 as India does today.
The Soviet Union was a shithole, and didn’t even provide good living standards for it’s people, but today millions of students and history buffs recognise the fact that a Russian was the first amn in in space.
They beat the worlds biggest economy and richest country, in the words of G’kar ‘no one hear is exactly who they appear’
Unless the respective leaders of China and India are living in dream worlds, I can’t see any point in their plans to send men to the moon.
You can’t support the requirements of manned lunar missions with the rockets that are adequate for satellite launches. It would require a colossal investment in special-purpose launchers and vehicles that would require billions of dollars a year just to keep the capicity in existence. That’s why the US stopped building Saturn V’s.
And once you get to the moon, then what? There would be no point in just sending two or three missions to prove you can do it and then never going there again. (The US did that just so we could be the first). Unless they plan to regularly send missions there, at least one every couple of years, and that’s something the US couldn’t afford. I’ve heard vague talk about the Chinese “mining” helium-3 from the lunar soil, but unless they’ve perfected fusion power and not told anyone that’s a pipe dream.
For that matter, I don’t understand why the Chinese are even bothering with manned orbital missions. Two or three men in a capsule in low earth orbit for a week or two. Another dead end/ done that forty years ago deal.
Still, even if China and India are pursuing manned space programs purely as vanity projects, I wish them the best of luck. I just don’t see a commitment to lunar exploration as anything other than wishful thinking.
litost: It’s not gobear’s commenting on India’s poverty that upset me - that’s absolutely the case. It was the following line that upset me:
Kimtsu’s comment that parts of India are impoverished shitholes is completely on target. But gobear’s blanket statement about all of India is simply not true. Unless you choose to describe all third world countries pulling their way out of poverty, with a massive middle class, which is the second largest producer of software in the world, which produces some of the finest minds in science and engineering, and which has a trillion dollar+ economy (PPP, mind you) “impoverished shitholes.”
I mean, come on - I could have even accepted “impoverished,” but “shithole”? Not necessary.
That’s not the worst of it! I hear that Clinton also gave them the secret to the magnetic compass, making paper, and gunpowder!! The traitor!!
While not disparaging either the engineering ability or economy of India, I have to take exception to this idea that a moon shot is trivially easy, that even the Smithsonian could have a moon program underway in months, etc.
Getting to the moon is very hard. It’s is astounding that NASA managed it in 1968. The Soviets gave up on their program, even as they were planning space stations and launching probes to other planets.
To get to the moon, you need a heavy lift rocket. Does India have one, that can lift payloads similar to a Saturn V? Then you need a moon lander that can hold one or more humans. And you need the space experience to be able to build habitats that can keep humans alive in space for a week or so with high reliability.
A few years ago, a top NASA engineer said that NASA was farther away then from building another moon rocket than they were in 1961 when Kennedy announced the goal.
Can any of you say :“Military Spy Satillites”? I knew you could.
Most of these countries want 'em, & a large-scale space progrtam is a way to build up the tech base to get 'em.
The software industry in Bangalore does not negate the fact that every city in India (and I was in a lot of of 'em) has people bathing on the street because they have to share one outside faucet with a dozen other families; where beggars are constantly imploring you for money (and I don’t mean one or two on a city block, I’m talking about a constant stream); where the air is heavy with the stench of shit and auto exhaust. Is “shithole” too strong a word? Perhaps. But I’ve traveled in plenty of impoverished nations and never experienced to such an extreme degree the full-on 24/7 assault on the senses (and the digestive tract) that I felt in India.
Mind you, my impressions are colored by the fact that I was travelling and not living there, whcih would have given me a much more balanced perspective, I’m sure. I was also sick the whole time I was there, and having to look for a toilet in quick reach whereever I went no doubt gave me a skewed view as well.
** gobear **
Thing is you conflated poor hygiene and pollution with extreme impoverishment. I also think you may have traveled a bit too much in a few notoriously backward states in the North. My 1 cent.
If you read V.S Naipaul’s account of his first visit to India in “Area of Darkness” there is a lot of ink devoted to the 24/7 assault on his senses. Then, IIRC, somewhere in the book he realises that most Indians don’t see or smell what he senses and pretty much ignore the landscape considering it to be static, harmless and hence irrelevant. The second time around, he focused much more on the humanity, culture, and dynamic social and economic changes. Again IIRC, he describes how he had to, in a sense, ignore India to see India.
That’s a very good point.
litost: I think I’m going to have to read that book!
gobear: Perhaps you’re right about visiting India vs. living there - while I don’t live in India, I’ve visited many, many times and the majority of my family lives there. I, obviously, would never choose to describe India as a “shithole,” but, to arrest the further hijacking of this thread, I’m going to stop now.
MilTan, to cap the hijack, it is important you also get to read his third and last travelogue, “India:A million mutinies now”