# Indiana House of Representative forbidden to open sessions with Christian prayer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560 "2005-12-01T15:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/21 "2005-12-01T22:34:07Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I did read the article. But I have to wonder why the Federal judge didn’t prohibit raucous singing if that’s what he had a problem with, he explicitly prohibited prayer in general… Uh, just which article did you read? [QUOTE] > [@](#): > > ([http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS01/512010428/1006](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS01/512010428/1006)) > …But Judge Hamilton found the instruction inadequate. He ordered the speaker to give more explicit instructions. > “If the Speaker chooses to continue to permit nonsectarian prayers as part of the official proceedings, he shall advise all persons offering such prayers . . . that the prayers must be non-sectarian and must not be used to proselytize or advance any one faith or belief or to disparage any other faith or belief.” Added Hamilton: “The prayers should not use Christ’s name or title or any other denominational appeal.”… > [@](#): > > …Of 53 prayers offered in the House during the 2005 session, 41 were delivered by people identified with Christian churches, Hamilton’s written opinion says. Of the 45 prayers for which transcripts were available, 29 were offered in the name of Jesus, the Savior and/or the Son. > One prayer urged that “whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Another called for a worldwide conversion to Christianity: “We look forward to the day when all nations and all people of the earth will have the opportunity to hear and respond to messages of love of the Almighty God who has revealed Himself in the saving power of Jesus Christ.”… **Martin Hyde** are you really arguing that nonsectarian prayers aren’t really prayers? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/22 "2005-12-02T00:42:50Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No one has ever told anyone they couldn’t practice their religion openly, off the taxpayer’s time, of course. I think they just have to realize that if they want to be preachers, there are jobs within the church they can apply for. This particular job is about governing. Thats not what I was talking about. Freedom of religion should mean that they can expect to follow _reasonable_ practices even on the taxpayers time. Muslims pray several times a day. Should a Muslim legislator be allowed to have the appointed prayer time? Can teachers read there Bible at school as long as it’s break or study time? Can religious legislators wear the symbols of their religion openly without being accused of violating seperation? These are all things that have and will come up. Thats why I suggested a few moments of silence. No one is asked to even listen to any belief they don’t support and it shows respect for those with beliefs by allowing them prayer time. Perhaps thses folks had a different compromise in mind that they couldn’t agree on. I’d be interested in hearing about it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/23 "2005-12-02T00:52:07Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > One could argue that prayer in any form is coercive when it’s coming from someone in a position of power. I don’t care how long it’s been going on. It has no place in the people’s government. I fail to see why this is so hard for the preachies to comprehend. Probably the same reason you can’t seem to comprehend there attitudes. If someone sincerely believes that belief is better for everyone and it’s part of their duty to witness then they will look for and create opportunities to do that. Some even think of the US as a Christian country founded on Christian principles and it’s part of our heritage to keep America predominantly Christian and get the christian message out there. For others it’s a simple majority issue. If the majority is Christian and decide to do things in a “Christian” format then the minority just has to cope. I don’t agree with any of these reasons but they are not hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/24 "2005-12-02T01:28:01Z")
> [@Matthew 6:5-6](#): > > And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. The nerve of some people, how dare this guy tell us how we can pray! Just who in the hell does he think he is, Jesus Christ! 😃 Sorry Jesus, I just couldn’t resist the temptation. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/25 "2005-12-02T01:29:54Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Uh, just which article did you read? > > **Martin Hyde** are you really arguing that nonsectarian prayers aren’t really prayers? Not sure what I was thinking when I typed that, I should have said, “the judge banned **Christian** prayer” outright. Which I do think was the judge’s intent. Because he specifically said the word “Christ” cannot be used. I think he means the term nonsectarian to mean it can’t refer to any religion in specific (as opposed to just being a prayer that is Christian in nature but specifically nondenominational.) Now, the reason that would contradict with Marsh v. Chambers is that case specifically allowed a Christian prayer, albeit a nondenominational Christian prayer. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/26 "2005-12-02T01:33:35Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > The Indianapolis Star story gives more detail. > [http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS01/512010428/1006](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS01/512010428/1006) > The incident that spurred the lawsuit was an opening prayer by Rev. Clarence Brown of Second Baptist Church in Bedford. Brown led the House in singing _Just A Little Talk With Jesus,_ encouring the reps to sing along and clap their hands. A few reps walked out. A Quaker lobbyist in the gallery attempted to leave, but says security wouldn’t let him out. > > The message was clear; If you aren’t a Protestant Christian, you still have to stand up and sing about Jesus. This is supposed to be a state where one is free to be a Catholic, Jew, or Muslim without being coerced into somebody else’s religious rituals. I wonder how strong the “encouragement” was, and how much pressure there was. I couldn’t find the part about people being prevented from leaving. That part really bothers me, and I’d appreciate the cite for it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/27 "2005-12-02T02:05:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I wonder how strong the “encouragement” was, and how much pressure there was. I couldn’t find the part about people being prevented from leaving. That part really bothers me, and I’d appreciate the cite for it. It’s actually in the block you quoted, underlined. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/28 "2005-12-02T02:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > MARSH v. CHAMBERS, III [@](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=463&invol=783) > The content of the prayer is not of concern to judges where, as here, there is no indication that the prayer opportunity has been exploited to proselytize or advance any one, …or to disparage any other, faith or belief. That being so, it is not for us to embark on a sensitive evaluation or to parse the content of a particular prayer. Unless I’m reading this wrong, they never considered the content of the prayers, but made it clear that certain content could be unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > [@](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS01/512010428/1006) > “We look forward to the day when all nations and all people of the earth will have the opportunity to hear and respond to messages of love of the Almighty God who has revealed Himself in the saving power of Jesus Christ.” Sounds like proselytizing and/or advancing to my ears! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/29 "2005-12-02T03:31:04Z")
When I was teaching in public schools, I sometimes had to sit through fundamentalist sermons that were offensive to my own Christian beliefs. I can’t imagine how our students of other faiths may have felt. And I wasn’t the only teacher who bristled. Leaving these religious services risked our jobs because we were leaving our “posts of duty” – a dismissable offense. I faced some harassment from school administrators for my differing religious beliefs, but some colleagues were quick to tell me that I should “pray without ceasing.” (They did not appear to be praying at the time.) No one keeps anyone from praying in any of the legislatures. I think every Christian believes that God can hear silent prayer. This isn’t really about God hearing prayers at all. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/30 "2005-12-02T04:08:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s actually in the block you quoted, underlined. [Emily Litella]Never mind[Emily] Forcing someone to stay, or pressuring them to take part violates the federal constitution nonestablishment clause. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/31 "2005-12-02T05:53:02Z")
Doesn’t all prayer in some way “advance or proselytize” a specific belief - ie, a belief in some manner of deity to hear that prayer? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/32 "2005-12-02T05:56:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So, PC run amuck and enforced by the courts, or just and fair? It’s a start. Ways to go, yet, before they’ll be opening the session with a prayer to Cthulhu. Political progress takes time. But we’ll get there! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/33 "2005-12-02T07:00:04Z")
As I see it, religious people have two choices: 1. Pray when you want to pray. But don’t make it part of our government. Nothing stops as many Congress-critters as want to from getting together and praying in whatever grouping they please, praying whatever they want to. You do that, and I’ll grant your beliefs lots of respect and leeway. 2. Act like dickheads. But don’t get all whiny about people attacking religion. If you want respect, see point 1. Otherwise, you don’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/34 "2005-12-02T13:45:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Probably the same reason you can’t seem to comprehend there attitudes. > > If someone sincerely believes that belief is better for everyone and it’s part of their duty to witness then they will look for and create opportunities to do that. Some even think of the US as a Christian country founded on Christian principles and it’s part of our heritage to keep America predominantly Christian and get the christian message out there. For others it’s a simple majority issue. If the majority is Christian and decide to do things in a “Christian” format then the minority just has to cope. > > I don’t agree with any of these reasons but they are not hard to understand. But there are appropriate venues for that, just as there are appropriate venues for having sex! I truly believe that having good sex goes a long way in creating a peaceful, loving environment for all of mankind. But I’m not going to drape myself across the podium in the rotunda and get down with that hot representative from the third ward to make my point. And we don’t operate on the basis of majority rule when it comes to things like separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/35 "2005-12-02T13:50:04Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But I’m not going to drape myself across the podium in the rotunda and get down with that hot representative from the third ward to make my point. I dunno. It might make politics more appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/36 "2005-12-02T13:52:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Thats not what I was talking about. Freedom of religion should mean that they can expect to follow _reasonable_ practices even on the taxpayers time. Muslims pray several times a day. Should a Muslim legislator be allowed to have the appointed prayer time? Can teachers read there Bible at school as long as it’s break or study time? Can religious legislators wear the symbols of their religion openly without being accused of violating seperation? These are all things that have and will come up. > Thats why I suggested a few moments of silence. No one is asked to even listen to any belief they don’t support and it shows respect for those with beliefs by allowing them prayer time. Perhaps thses folks had a different compromise in mind that they couldn’t agree on. I’d be interested in hearing about it. A muslim could pray on his break. Wearing a symbol doesn’t take up government time and isn’t coercive. Huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/37 "2005-12-02T14:51:59Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > When I was teaching in public schools, I sometimes had to sit through fundamentalist sermons that were offensive to my own Christian beliefs. I can’t imagine how our students of other faiths may have felt. And I wasn’t the only teacher who bristled. I’m a little confused. How is it that you had to listen to sermons in a public school? How were sermons allowed in a public school? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/38 "2005-12-02T14:54:46Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > . > I couldn’t find the part about people being prevented from leaving. That part really bothers me, and I’d appreciate the cite for it. I got that part from a newsletter from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. I just now finished pawing through the recycle bin, but I could not find it. The lobbyist says he got up to walk out, but he was stopped at the door by Statehouse security. The state has not commented on his assertion, IIRC. He joined in the ICLU lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/39 "2005-12-02T15:12:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m a little confused. How is it that you had to listen to sermons in a public school? How were sermons allowed in a public school? I believe **Zoe** was teaching back before prayer and such in school was ruled unconstitutional (it only happened in 1962, after all). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560/40 "2005-12-02T15:17:01Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But there are appropriate venues for that, just as there are appropriate venues for having sex! I truly believe that having good sex goes a long way in creating a peaceful, loving environment for all of mankind. But I’m not going to drape myself across the podium in the rotunda and get down with that hot representative from the third ward to make my point. > > And we don’t operate on the basis of majority rule when it comes to things like separation of church and state. I agree…I did say\* reasonable\* expression. I don’t consider open blatently Christian prayer reasonable expecially if others are objecting. A few moments of silence seems reasonable to me. I’m just noting that there will be disagreements over what constitutes reasonable. The 1st amendment also guarentees freedom of worship so as we define the paramenters of the establishment clause we must also define how we defend people’s right to worship. It’s a two sided coin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-house-of-representative-forbidden-to-open-sessions-with-christian-prayer/333560.md?page=3)