# Indiana Jews and the Temple of Broomstick **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 5, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018 "2017-10-05T14:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/181 "2024-06-11T21:33:26Z")
Those people, the Orthodox, control enough of the parliament that concessions must be made to them if you want to form a coalition. They’re a powerful minority unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/182 "2024-06-11T21:36:35Z")
And the current law defines “Jewish” very broadly, because the entire reason for the creation of the modern state of Israel was to be a haven for Jews, safe from persecution. And the Nazis and other persecutors of the Jews defined Jews very broadly, and so the class of people who are to be protected from persecution is defined similarly broadly. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/183 "2024-06-11T21:53:52Z")
Yes, and now Israel has a couple of wannabe theocratic fascists who want to re-define the term in much narrower terms for their own gain. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/184 "2024-06-11T22:07:00Z")
Kind of boggles the mind how, in spite of all that, so many American Reform and Conservative Jews are still all starry-eyed “We Stand With Israel” types. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/185 "2024-06-11T22:14:51Z")
The Reform synagogue I am associated with is in the uncomfortable position of having family of one of the hostages in our congregation as well as a number of people who are really, really, really unhappy with the current Israeli government. In Jewish communities the situation can have nuance, but a lot of Jews feel they have to close ranks in public. Also, a lot of American Jews really do not pay much attention to Israeli politics. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/186 "2024-06-11T22:20:03Z")
Well, I know that a lot of the hostages’ families are also intensely unhappy with the government, so that’s not necessarily inconsistent. As it happens I also know people who are closely related to a hostage; I haven’t asked their opinion on the politics of it, but I know his immediate family in Israel have been very publicly denouncing Netanyahu for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/187 "2024-06-17T17:20:14Z")
To say the situation and the feelings of those involved are “complicated” is an understatement. I can not speak for the family of the young man in question, nor would I care to speculate. Lets just go with the understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/188 "2024-06-23T10:55:56Z")
Pretty cool thing happened on Friday night. We had two new Jews! Not just “new to us” Jews, brand-new dipped-in-a-_mikvah_ Jews. Two ladies completed their conversions. The rabbi featured them in the services, including their first _aliyah_. Also a little dancing. Many, many _mazel tov_. And some champagne after services were done and we were all _schmoozing_, to go along with the cake decorated with “Mazel Tov”. For those note familiar - Judaism does not encourage conversion and doesn’t get many. Years go by between conversions in a community. We had two at once! How cool that two people chose to join the tribe. Family and friends of the two new Jews were also invited, both Jew and gentile, thoroughly filling out the seats. The rabbi didn’t forget the cupcake and candle for the boy having a birthday, either. Lighting said candle with a large BBQ firestarter was also a popular choice, with a vague suggestion of “blowtorch”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/189 "2024-06-23T14:05:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It may not matter to anyone else, but on a certain level my name and identity was restored to me today. Agreeing with others: it matters. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Kind of boggles the mind how, in spite of all that, so many American Reform and Conservative Jews are still all starry-eyed “We Stand With Israel” types. Standing with Israel, and agreeing with its current government and that government’s behavior, are two very different things. Let alone agreeing with the desires of a faction within that government. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/190 "2024-06-23T23:57:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A Jew just has to set foot in Israel and _\>boom\<_ instant citizen. In Israel only Jews are legally allowed to have dual citizenship. I thought you had to wait a year. But the whole thread raises an interesting question. In @Broomstick’s case she has some documentation. But in my case, well both parents identified as Jews, and all four grandparents did too. But that’s all I know. If I were challenged to prove I was Jewish, what would I do? It was all word of mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/191 "2024-06-24T10:35:57Z")
That’s an interesting question in today’s world where everything needs to be rigorously documented. Sort of weird that I went from being questionably Jewish to now having proof my _mother_ was Jewish prior to my birth, which is pretty solid proof. (The only possible fly in the ointment there is that she converted to Reform, which some of the more extreme types would not recognize as valid). But in your case, @Hari_Seldon, do you have any of the _ketubot_, the official Jewish marriage contracts, for your parents and grandparents? That would probably constitute proof of identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/192 "2024-06-24T11:52:33Z")
!. My experience is that, outside fundamentalist/evangelical sects, Christians are not going to proselytize. Of course, in the US there are a lot of the first type. You probably know many more Christians than you think, because they don’t feel a need to share their faith unless someone is actually interested. I’ve never known Catholics, for example, to proselytize. Despite being exhorted at regular intervals by their higher-ups, Catholics are a pretty passive group, by and large. 1. Most food pantries, with the exception of the fundies, do not proselytize. They just give out food and smiles. 2. Most people are church-goers for the community spirit, and the sense of participating in something both uplifting and moral; both things are thin on the ground in this modern era of lonely selfishness. I believe this is true of any religion. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/193 "2024-06-24T13:23:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > But in your case, @Hari_Seldon, do you have any of the _ketubot_, the official Jewish marriage contracts, for your parents and grandparents? That would probably constitute proof of identity. Good grief. It never occured to me before that I have no such proof. I have a civil marriage certificate for my parents. I have assorted bits of family history info. I have a book written about my aunt which discusses among other things the fact that the family’s Jewish. I have and had relatives who are/were members of various synagogues, at least some of them Reform. But although all of my grandparents were certainly Jewish I don’t think I could prove it by documentation; if my parents were ever members of any synagogue it was before I was born, and my grandparents were all refugees who didn’t bring piles of paperwork with them. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/194 "2024-06-24T13:30:19Z")
No and I am not sure they had any. But I certainly never saw any ketubot. We have our own though. So my (step)-father-in-law’s rabbi thought we were kosher. But he was a conservative rabbi. Here’s another point. You probably know that modern genetic analyses show that Ashkenzim have European MtDNA which is passed through the maternal line only. Males have middle eastern Y chromosomes and they are passed through the male line only. This implies that if we could trace the history far enough back, we would find a non-Jew in the female line. I can imagine middle eastern peddlers coming north, taking a wife, but raising their kids as Jews. Now was she ever formally converted? And by whom? Were these questions ever raised in those bygone days? Who would have decided? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/195 "2024-06-24T14:35:17Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My experience is that, outside fundamentalist/evangelical sects, Christians are not going to proselytize. Of course, in the US there are a lot of the first type. You probably know many more Christians than you think, because they don’t feel a need to share their faith unless someone is actually interested. I actually have some very warm and close relationships with some very Protestant Christians in my area, to the point they have declared me an honorary family member and some of the younger ones call me “aunt”. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Most food pantries, with the exception of the fundies, do not proselytize. They just give out food and smiles. Unfortunately there are some of those. Back in the Great Recession I happened upon one such that would spend 40 minutes haranguing the hungry with how they were all sinners and needed to repent and come to their particular church. Well, sure, you can sit through words in order to get food for your family but it’s still pretty objectionable in my view. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Most people are church-goers for the community spirit, That’s why I sometimes go to synagogue in my area. It’s about being part of community and socializing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/196 "2024-06-24T14:47:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > No and I am not sure they had any. But I certainly never saw any ketubot. We have our own though. So my (step)-father-in-law’s rabbi thought we were kosher. But he was a conservative rabbi. The current rabbi I deal with has mentioned that there exists databases of such documents and if we had not found my mother’s original it might have been possible to find it by contacting such an archive. I don’t think it’s a huge problem at this point in time, I haven’t heard of many people have problems proving they’re Jewish (although it probably does happen from time to time). But who knows what the future may hold? > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Here’s another point. You probably know that modern genetic analyses show that Ashkenzim have European MtDNA which is passed through the maternal line only. Males have middle eastern Y chromosomes and they are passed through the male line only. This implies that if we could trace the history far enough back, we would find a non-Jew in the female line. I can imagine middle eastern peddlers coming north, taking a wife, but raising their kids as Jews. Now was she ever formally converted? And by whom? Were these questions ever raised in those bygone days? Who would have decided? I imagine it was somewhat muddled. Conversion has certainly long been a possibility, but outside of established Jewish communities fraught with obstacles. Probably a certain number “snuck” in, adopting customs and forms but not _actually_ doing a formal, rabbinically recognized conversion. If one of those Middle Eastern peddlers brought back a wife to the Middle East who behaved as a Jew, knew the rituals and forms, and who at most had only a few oddities that could be explained being from far away… might not be questioned. Some probably did formally convert. The exact details in all or nearly all cases would be lost to history at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/197 "2024-06-24T14:57:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Silly me - couldn’t initially figure out why the doors were locked and a doorbell and video camera were installed. Not so much white privilege but gentile privilege. This statement and the judgment it displays very much annoys me. The camera and locked door were undoubtedly for SECURITY because churches are robbed with impunity these days. I was actually attending a service where two men walked in and, without as so much breaking step, walked up to the altar, picked up the offering basket with its meager contents, and walked right out. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/198 "2024-06-24T15:37:26Z")
Robbery? No, it’s not fear of theft. It’s fear of being massacred. At no time during any Jewish service or community event that I have attended in the past 8 years in this community would it have been even _possible_ for two people to just “walk in”. The doors are locked. Always. Without exception. Outdoor events have armed security and a perimeter. Sometimes even temporary fencing. Doors are bullet resistant and all windows have bullet resistant glass. There are concrete bollards outside of all entrances and landscaping that serves the same function at other locations. Yes, churches are robbed. That has been true of churches since time began. It has also been my experience that Christian churches tend to have at least some hours during the day when their doors are open and people can simply enter from off the street. That never happens in my local Jewish community. Once you knock/ring the bell/whatever you may be invited in and welcomed but it’s simply not possible to enter on your own at any time. Again, it’s not fear of theft. It’s fear of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/199 "2024-06-24T15:49:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Again, it’s not fear of theft. It’s fear of murder. I can certainly understand that and agree with it based on the treatment they’ve received over time. That doesn’t explain why you attributed the locked doors and cameras to, “Not so much white privilege but gentile privilege.” Not getting that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/200 "2024-06-24T15:58:12Z")
I have at numerous times in my life entered Christian churches on two different continents. I have never, to my recollection, ever needed to be buzzed in, accompanied by a member of that church, or otherwise vetted to enter. As noted, entry into Jewish spaces has uniformly been different. “Gentile privilege” - Christians have less concern/need of security than Jews do (that does not mean _no_ need for it, just less need). Same sense as “White privilege”. Which, to be sure, is not so much _privilege_ but rather a lack of disadvantage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018.md?page=11)