# Indiana Jews and the Temple of Broomstick **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 5, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018 "2017-10-05T14:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/121 "2017-10-10T12:07:07Z")
See, Brooms? You’re totally a member of the Tribe. I always knew you were knowledgeable about things Jewish-ish, but your entries in this thread demonstrate your understanding of so many of the nuances - and of course most importantly- you know that there ARE nuances and it’s lota of fun to haggle over them. Whether you choose to be more religious-ish or not is a side matter. Okay, a kosher-or-not story: I was in the supermarket dairy aisle with my best bud, and she was asking me questions about kosher laws. I don’t keep kosher. It was just curiosity on her part. She said “okay, so butter comes from milk, which comes from a cow, so it’s considered meat, right?” I just about hit the floor laughing and she was all like :smack::smack::smack: when she realized what she had just said. “I guess I was overthinking that, huh?” “Yep.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/122 "2017-10-10T12:56:08Z")
I think my love of [del]argument[/del] discussion and thoughtful debate comes from the Jewish influence in my background. (The tendencies toward poo-flinging flame wars is, of course, the proto-hominid chimpanzee cousin influence we all have. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/123 "2017-10-10T15:01:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Bagels and lox, my man. Bagels and lox. > > Fish is _parve_, so it counts as neither dairy nor meat. Please: bagels, lox, and cream cheese. Yes, fish is parve. Can anyone explain how they went from a prohibition of cooking a kid in its mother’s mild to a general prohibition of having meat and milk in the same meal (or within four hours, IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/124 "2017-10-10T16:06:09Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Please: bagels, lox, and cream cheese. Yes, fish is parve. > > Can anyone explain how they went from a prohibition of cooking a kid in its mother’s mild to a general prohibition of having meat and milk in the same meal (or within four hours, IIRC). PERFECT segue into this old [joke](http://www.rabbidanny.com/2014/11/why-dont-people-eat-chicken-and-milk.html)(and the opportunity may never come again!): > [@](#): > > In the Torah on three occasions we read the line “do not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”, twice in Shemot (Exodus) and once in Devarim (Deuteronomy). > > This led to the joke: > > God says to Moses: “Do not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”. > Moses thinks for a moment and says: “Okay so we will avoid eating things that combine milk and meat.” > > So God says: “Do not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”. > And Moses responds: “Okay, we’ll make sure that after we eat milk products we’ll wait half an hour before we eat anything meaty, and we’ll wait three hours in the other direction.” > > So God says: “Do not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”. > To which Moses says: “Okay, I get it, we’ll have separate dishes for meat and milk, with separate cutlery and separate sinks.” > > So finally God says to Moses: “Have it your own way then!” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/125 "2017-10-10T16:21:09Z")
I really do suspect that a lot of the elaborate rule following has more to do with people than commandments of G-d (I figured in a Jewish-themed thread I’d follow Jewish convention on that one). If I recall, the reason some Jews don’t mix fish and dairy is to prevent the _appearance_ of mixing meat and milk, basically, so _someone else_ doesn’t get a mistaken idea of what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/126 "2017-10-10T16:25:46Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Can anyone explain how they went from a prohibition of cooking a kid in its mother’s mild to a general prohibition of having meat and milk in the same meal (or within four hours, IIRC). My understanding is that (as the joke above implies) it’s the _repetition_ of the commandment that really triggered the ancient sages. It’s in there three times! It’s gotta be super important! So they ‘built a fence’ around the commandment to make sure nobody stumbled their way into breaking what was obviously a Really Big Deal. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/127 "2017-10-10T16:29:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If I recall, the reason some Jews don’t mix fish and dairy is to prevent the _appearance_ of mixing meat and milk, basically, so _someone else_ doesn’t get a mistaken idea of what’s going on. Actually, it’s most likely a mistake on the part of Rabbi Yosef Karo, who compiled and codified Jewish law several hundred years ago. He wrote not to eat fish with milk. Many commentators and codifiers (both in his own time and ever since) pointed out that he most likely made a mistake, and that he meant meat and milk. However, since many or most Sephardim follow Rabbi Karo’s writings, they refrain from fish and milk. (Although, some allow fish and milk to be eaten as long as they were not cooked together, so bagel-lox-cream cheese would be ok, but not tuna-fish casserole.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/128 "2017-10-11T01:45:32Z")
There’s also the obscure kosher law forbidding eating meat from the thigh, which arose from [Genesis 32:24-32](http://biblehub.com/nasb/genesis/32.htm), wherein Jacob wrestles with an angel at the ford at Mahanaim. The pronouns are so garbled that you can’t tell who did what to whom, but Jacob ended up with his leg out of joint. > [@](#): > > 24Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” 31Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh. 32Therefore, to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh, because he touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew of the hip. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/129 "2017-10-11T02:17:29Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > There’s also the obscure kosher law forbidding eating meat from the thigh, which arose from [Genesis 32:24-32](http://biblehub.com/nasb/genesis/32.htm), wherein Jacob wrestles with an angel at the ford at Mahanaim. The pronouns are so garbled that you can’t tell who did what to whom, but Jacob ended up with his leg out of joint. Speaking of Jacob, one cool thing I really like is that God changed Jacob’s name to Israel, which means “wrestles with God.” (A more knowledgeable person can expound on the etymology.) I think this describes the Jewish identity well, namely, wrestling with God. I know I do and it suits me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/130 "2017-10-11T04:10:58Z")
I thought it was that that the sciatic nerve and the blood vessels had to be removed form the thigh to make it kosher than that’s such an involved, annoying, and difficult process that they Jews pretty much don’t bother? Or did I hear wrong? (Inquiring mutts want to know) ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/131 "2017-10-11T12:56:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I thought it was that that the sciatic nerve and the blood vessels had to be removed form the thigh to make it kosher than that’s such an involved, annoying, and difficult process that they Jews pretty much don’t bother? Or did I hear wrong? > > (Inquiring mutts want to know) This is true. Yet again, it depends on which community you belong to. It is hard to properly remove the sciatic nerve and fat and blood vessels, but there are expert butchers who do this. It’s called _nikkur_ (Hebrew) or _traibering_ (Yiddish). Read more about it [here](http://www.thekosheromnivoresquest.com/blog/cow-butts-are-kosher). Because the last of the fall holidays will begin in about 2 hours, I will wish everyone a _chag samayach_ and _Shabbat Shalom_. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/132 "2017-10-12T04:43:26Z")
And today’s meeting was lunch and a movie. Lunch was an egg and cheese casserole, a French toast casserole (which actually I liked better than most French toast), hash browns, and a fruit mix for dessert. I’m still in the “long standing members interrogate the new person” stage, but it’s OK, I expected that. One of the gentlemen at our table and I did some reminiscing about living in Chicago. The next table over was have a rousing discussion of politics and our current President and Vice President (remember, that guy used to be our governor in this state) which was becoming progressively louder and more animated for a bit. Refreshing to be among people whose political views are more in line with my own than what I typically hear. I am rediscovering how stressful I find eating where I don’t control the menu and have been having a snack before lunch so if I have to skip the meal it’s not a huge issue, but then I tend to eat less than a full portion. I don’t want to become The Allergic One too early on but with next Wednesday being baked ziti I may have to simply request a tomato free salad and extra garlic bread. Which I’m totally OK with, but someone already expressed concern I wasn’t eating enough. _\>sigh\<_ Movie was _The Time Traveler’s Wife_, which was not what any of us expected it to be but we all agreed was a good movie. Next Monday is a trip to Starved Rock, which bus is already full, so it will be just my knitting “Stitch N Bitch” group that day, and next Wednesday is, as I said, baked ziti which I can’t eat followed by flu shots, which I am not supposed to get and if I did the driver for the old folks who need a ride might need to apply her EMT skills to me instead of the elderly. So… might just skip next week entirely although I’d really like to stay for the lunch and socializing. Food allergies can really throw a wrench into social events. The week after is a trip to Giordano’s for lunch - which, despite being a pizza place I can do because they have a surprisingly good selection of salads - and on the Wednesday with a lecture by a rabbi, which actually sounds interesting. On November first the post-lunch portion is supposed to be Tai Chi. I have noticed that attendance is variable, clearly people show up or don’t show up based on menu and/or activity. The group definitely skews towards older and post-retirement folks, which isn’t too surprisingly for a group that meets on weekdays. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/133 "2017-10-12T13:38:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … I’m still in the “long standing members interrogate the new person” stage, but it’s OK, I expected that. … That beats the heck out of “long standing members IGNORE the new person,” which usually the case at my synagogue. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/134 "2017-10-12T14:07:20Z")
I’m finding this thread very interesting. I work in a store owned by Hassidic Jews, and one of the things they are strictest about is no meat in the actual store. Any food containing meat has to be brought into the store thoroughly wrapped, and only opened in the break room. Only neutral and diary foods (fortunately, that includes coffee with cream) can be taken to the register. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/135 "2018-03-30T03:19:24Z")
Thought I’d drop by and update this thread. I continued (and still continue) to go to the twice-weekly lunch when my schedule permits and I am no longer The Newest Person. We have a chef originally from Mexico whose offerings range from kosher Mexican food to a traditional seder in a largely Eastern European/American style. Oh, yes, the seder - the Jewish Federation of Northwest Indiana had a seder for the lunch on this past Wednesday. That was actually before Passover (which starts sundown on Friday) and took a few short-cuts - consider it a dress rehearsal of sorts. The local Chabad rabbi ran the show (he’s a young guy with seven kids and counting). There were a number of non-Jewish guests (the very interesting lady sitting next to me was a 90 year old member of the Episcopalians) as well who were cautioned at the start that yes, we WOULD have an actual meal in here somewhere but there was a bunch of ceremonial/traditional things to go through. Also, few of us really wanted to down four full glasses of wine then try to drive home and there was non-fermented grape juice available for those who don’t drink alcohol. I’ve haven’t been to a Seder of any sort for decades, and I was surprised how much I remember. The horseradish was not the dyed-pink-with-beet-juice I remember from childhood but had actual beets chopped/grated with the horseradish, which was a bit different. New-to-seder folks were cautioned about it, then most of the veterans commenced to eat it by the spoonful. The also have a “loneliness group” for those who have lost loved ones that is currently composed of widows which, again, I am attending as my schedule allows. I find it’s a group I’m comfortable with, which is rare, and it is helpful to have people to talk to who have gone through a similar loss. One of the old ladies has adopted me - she told me that (and everyone else) a couple weeks ago though we’re debating whether she is my Jewish grandmother or my Jewish mother. The Very Interesting Episcopalian Woman Next to Me at Seder has likewise announced an intention to adopt me as granddaughter. Well, I do seem to be acquiring new friends! ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/136 "2018-03-30T03:51:20Z")
You sound happy. Happy is good. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/137 "2018-03-30T13:14:01Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > As a Jew of New Jersey I welcome you 🙂 Why did I hear that in my head in Quimby’s voice? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/138 "2018-03-30T18:33:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > …The horseradish was not the dyed-pink-with-beet-juice I remember from childhood but had actual beets chopped/grated with the horseradish, which was a bit different. New-to-seder folks were cautioned about it, then most of the veterans commenced to eat it by the spoonful… I was shopping for my seder Wednesday evening, and I couldn’t find the pink grated horseradish of my childhood. I like to serve both sliced and grated horseradish. The supermarket helpfully had a nice selection of whole horseradish roots, and I found some “horseradish sauce” (which had corn syrup and other stuff my guests might not want for passover) in it. I eventually found some prepared horseradish at Whole Paycheck that was just grated horseradish in vinegar. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/139 "2018-03-30T19:48:47Z")
My great-aunt Pearl used to grate the horseradish by hand and dyed it pink herself. It’s beet juice that gives it the color. Is it weird that I like the combo of gefilte fish and horseradish? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018/140 "2018-03-30T23:14:05Z")
I once went to a reconstructionist seder where they put an orange on the seder plate. As a Unitarian, I appreciated that sort of thinking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jews-and-the-temple-of-broomstick/798018.md?page=8)