# Indiana Jones / Han Solo as misogynistic characters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 25, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717 "2016-10-25T19:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/1 "2016-10-25T19:28:38Z")
There is something of a side-conversation in this thread on whether or not the above Harrison Ford characters are or are not misogynistic: > **[Han Solo prequel planned](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=761712)** > > http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/entertainment/star-wars-han-solo-prequel-movie-feat/index.html I have a bad feeling about this… I was a bit surprised at the suggestion but on thinking about it I can see how they could be perceived that way, though personally I would probably set a higher bar to accuse someone _(fictional character or otherwise)_ of misogyny. I can’t say much about Han Solo as while I enjoyed the Star Wars movies they were never really my thing, growing up I much preferred the Indiana Jones trilogy. However I would say Indiana Jones is depicted as someone from his time and place and we couldn’t really expect him to have modern attitudes, besides isn’t a university professor pretty much patronising by definition? 😛 Thoughts? I haven’t watched any of the Indiana Jones movies for a long time and now I’m kind of curious but reluctant to do so in case I end up viewing them differently. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/2 "2016-10-25T19:40:52Z")
Indiana Jones is a character from the 1930s, an era that is not exactly known for progressive thought in gender roles (the sexual politics of the Jazz Age notwithstanding). That said, the sample size is fairly low, with only four significant female roles across 4 films: \*Marion (the love of his life and who gives as good as she gets) \*Willie (who, as written, is phenomenally dumb and shallow) \*Elsa (who he respects as an academic, and even tries to save her after her betrayal) \*Spalko (who is a one-dimensional villain). The closest thing to misogyny I can remember is when he accidentally punches a cigarette girl in the face at the beginning of _Temple of Doom_. Otherwise, his pursuit of the various artifacts is relentless but he doesn’t treat women any worse than he does men. Han Solo has an even smaller sample set, with one female he interacts with in the entire Original Trilogy and two in Episode 7: - Leia (the love of his life, who gives as good as she gets) - Rey (who he respects from early on in their encounter, enough to offer her a role on his crew) - Maz (who he defers to as wise and worthy of respect) The closest thing to misogyny I can think of in the SW films is when he suggests that Phasma gets thrown down the trash chute (which is quite generous, since killing her by blaster would be a far more understandable solution under the circumstances). I’m not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/3 "2016-10-25T19:57:13Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > Han Solo has an even smaller sample set, with one female he interacts with in the entire Original Trilogy and two in Episode 7: > > - Leia (the love of his life, who gives as good as she gets) > - Rey (who he respects from early on in their encounter, enough to offer her a role on his crew) > - Maz (who he defers to as wise and worthy of respect) Also, while he doesn’t really _interact_ with her, consider his reaction when Mon Mothma starts talking about whether the time has come to launch an attack: he of course falls silent, listens as attentively as everyone else, and otherwise acts like this is somebody who knows what she’s talking about and has big important things to say. ---
**Author:** ![Number](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/number/32/242_2.png) [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/4 "2016-10-26T00:12:53Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > \*Marion (the love of his life and who gives as good as she gets) Well, there is also the fact that he seduced and probably had sex with her when she was underage. From her [Wikipedia entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Ravenwood#Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark): > [@](#): > > Marion entered into a relationship with Indiana Jones during this time (when she was 15, according to the novelization of _Raiders of the Lost Ark_). Jones abruptly left the Ravenwoods in 1926; Marion was about 16 or 17 years old when the relationship finished, and Jones was 27, ten years her senior. Later in her life, Marion chastised Jones, stating, “I was a child! I was in love! It was wrong and you knew it!” Jones showed little remorse, and simply replied “You knew what you were doing.” I don’t know if that’s misogynistic exactly…more like predatory. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/5 "2016-10-26T00:35:56Z")
I believe that Han Solo has a line that always seemed misogynist to me. I couldn’t remember it, so I googled, and found it mentioned in [a very similarly titled thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18502775#post18502775) from a year ago. > [@](#): > > If we can just avoid any more female advice, we ought to be able to get out of here. And I basically still say what I said in that thread: > [@](#): > > That would probably be the line getting people’s panties in a twist. I’d hoped there’d be a previous line where Leia explicitly referred to herself as female or her idea as female intuition, but no such luck. It does seem out of nowhere to think the problem is because she’s female and not because she’s royalty with no experience. The rest of his lines work for the royal-pain-in-the-ass interpretation, but this one doesn’t. Note, I don’t think it’s all that bad or anything. I think having him be a bit misogynist kinda works for the character, to be honest. Or even, yes, that he was being intentionally misogynist to get under her skin, as they had that back and forth going. Still think “Any more princess advice” would have worked better, though. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/6 "2016-10-26T22:12:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I believe that Han Solo has a line that always seemed misogynist to me. I couldn’t remember it, so I googled, and found it mentioned in [a very similarly titled thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18502775#post18502775) from a year ago. Ah, I didn’t notice that thread, thank you, I didn’t realise the Han Solo thread wasn’t new. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/7 "2016-10-27T00:56:54Z")
Solo’s cocky. Maybe a tad chauvinistic and teasing toward Leia early on. Big deal. Jones gets flustered when a coed flirts with him. If someone is so sensitive that either character seems misogynistic, then that someone needs to chill the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/8 "2016-10-27T02:04:37Z")
The argument for Han Solo being a misogynist is so weak, it’s really not worth addressing. The question about Indiana is a bit more interesting, in part because it’s really hard to decide what frame of reference to use to judge his actions. In 1926, a 15 year old dating a 15 year old would barely raise eyebrows. In 1981, it might be seen as a bit roguish, but not a fatal character flaw. In 2016, it makes you an utter scumbag. On the other hand, sleeping with a “respectable” woman in 1926 and not marrying her _did_ make you a scum bag. But it wouldn’t in 1981, and even less so in 2016. It’s a fairly safe bet Jones isn’t intended to be viewed as a scumbag: having sex with Marion but not marrying her would be seen as an appropriately modern attitude for the character in 1981. So, either we judge his behavior by modern standards, in which case he’s a scumbag, or judge him by his contemporary standards, in which case he’s _also_ a scumbag, but for slightly different reasons. Which brings me to a related question: is the Galactic Empire misogynist? It sure looks like it: we never see any women at all in uniform in the original trilogy. But is it _supposed_ to be read as misogynistic, or is that just a function of the film being made in the '70s, when the default assumption for, “Important military person,” was “older dude.” Similarly, is the Galactic Empire racist? Because we don’t see any non-white people in uniform, either. We also never see any aliens working for the Empire, and that has been interpreted in other SW media as evidence that the Empire is overtly prejudiced against aliens - but that other media has also included a lot of female and non-white Imperial characters. It’s interesting how lack of one sort of representation in the films was folded into the broader characterization of the Empire, but others did not. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/9 "2016-10-27T02:56:23Z")
To Indy’s credit, he didn’t take advantage of the Co-ed in the front row who wrote “Love You” on her eyelids. So, there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/10 "2016-10-27T03:25:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It sure looks like it: we never see any women at all in uniform in the original trilogy. But is it _supposed_ to be read as misogynistic, or is that just a function of the film being made in the '70s, when the default assumption for, “Important military person,” was “older dude.” The Rebellion is shown having a female leader and female officers (plus a female, err…Princess) so I don’t think Lucas just defaulted to “military leader == dude”. I think the Galactic Empire didn’t have female leaders because they were basically supposed to be Space Nazis, and the actual Nazis didn’t have female leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/11 "2016-10-27T04:18:27Z")
Han Solo is a “lovable rogue”. Having flaws and being a bit of a jerk but charming at the same time is what the character is about. If he wasn’t like this there would be no progression for the character and he’d be even more one dimensional than he already is. In short, “misogynistic” is probably too strong a word, but he’s a bit sexist and that’s ok in the context of the film ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/12 "2016-10-27T07:11:59Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > To Indy’s credit, he didn’t take advantage of the Co-ed in the front row who wrote “Love You” on her eyelids. > > So, there’s that. Maybe he already had ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/13 "2016-10-27T08:52:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which brings me to a related question: is the Galactic Empire misogynist? It sure looks like it: we never see any women at all in uniform in the original trilogy. Well, there was a [deleted scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X9NFknjTRE). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/14 "2016-10-27T18:31:01Z")
Given that there aren’t too many threads that are about both Indy and Han, it would be a shame to let one go by without linking to [this t-shirt](http://shirt.woot.com/offers/starcheology). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/15 "2016-10-27T18:33:44Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > To Indy’s credit, he didn’t take advantage of the Co-ed in the front row who wrote “Love You” on her eyelids. … as far as we know. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/16 "2016-10-27T18:34:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Given that there aren’t too many threads that are about both Indy and Han, it would be a shame to let one go by without linking to [this t-shirt](http://shirt.woot.com/offers/starcheology). That is, indeed, an awesome shirt. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/17 "2016-10-28T02:17:40Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The Rebellion is shown having a female leader and female officers (plus a female, err…Princess) so I don’t think Lucas just defaulted to “military leader == dude”. I think the Galactic Empire didn’t have female leaders because they were basically supposed to be Space Nazis, and the actual Nazis didn’t have female leaders. Well, I was specifically thinking of Imperial uniforms… but I don’t think you ever see a woman in a rebel military outfit in the original trilogy, either. Mon Mothma and Leia represent the civilian leadership of the Rebel Alliance. They’re politicians and diplomats (and spies), not military. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/18 "2016-11-04T12:19:31Z")
Here’s a nice quote directly on the topic, arguing that the character’s behaviors are indeed misogynistic: > [@](#): > > "All right, so here’s the first lesson I got on sexual consent. I was six years old. My hero and lifelong role model, Han Solo, approaches a woman who has told him at every opportunity that she’s not interested. Han comes up from behind and presses his body against hers. She’s a strong woman, a fighter, so she physically shoves him off … > > "Undeterred, Han moves back in, grabs her hands, and starts rubbing them. She says, “Stop that,” and looks nervous. When he doesn’t stop, she clearly says it again. He still doesn’t stop. Romantic music plays … > > "This exchange follows: > > Han: What are you afraid of? > > Leia: Afraid? > > Han: You’re trembling. > > Leia: I’m not trembling. > > Han: You like me because I’m a scoundrel. There aren’t enough scoundrels in your life. > > Leia: I happen to like nice men. > > Han: I’m a nice man. > > Leia: No you’re not. You’re … > > "And he kisses her. Note: Her head is pressed up against a metal wall… and all of this occurs in a sealed spacecraft floating in the cold vacuum of outer space. Even if she wanted to leave, she couldn’t (because of the implications). The result of this encounter is that she falls in love with this man and they spend the rest of their lives together… > **[7 Reasons So Many Guys Don’t Understand Sexual Consent](https://www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal)** > > We're still teaching boys these lessons, every day. Here's what the lesson plan looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-jones-han-solo-as-misogynistic-characters/769717/19 "2016-11-04T14:02:40Z")
I just read that article too. It seems like a textbook case of sexual assault as espoused in various threads on this message board.