# Indiana/Shooting/Firearm Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285 "2022-07-20T21:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![19USMC69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ac91a4/32.png) [@19USMC69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19USMC69)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/1 "2022-07-20T21:49:11Z")
Piecing together a few media reports, the “Good Samaritan” who shot and killed the bad guy did so from 30 yards (120’). Further, he fired 10 rounds in 15 seconds, 8 of which hit the target. If all this is accurate this guy is quite a marksman. I’d like to know what he was carrying. Anyone know? Whatever it was odds are the barrel probably wasn’t any longer than 5 - 5.5”. Quite a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/2 "2022-07-20T21:57:34Z")
I read it was a 9mm Glock. Wish I had a cite on hand. ETA: > **[Bystander Killed Gunman 2 Minutes Into Indiana Mall Shooting (Published 2022)](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/18/us/greenwood-indiana-mall-shooting.html)** > > The gunman used a rifle to kill three people and injure two others before he was shot dead. He had spent an hour inside a mall bathroom apparently preparing for the attack. > Chief Ison said that the police could not determine whether Mr. Dicken had a gun permit, but that he was carrying his Glock 9-millimeter handgun legally under the state’s constitutional carry law. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/3 "2022-07-20T22:03:15Z")
> [@19USMC69](#): > > Piecing together a few media reports, the “Good Samaritan” who shot and killed the bad guy did so from 30 yards (120’). Further, he fired 10 rounds in 15 seconds, 8 of which hit the target. > > If all this is accurate this guy is quite a marksman. I’d like to know what he was carrying. Anyone know? A person sized target at 30 yards? Not difficult in range conditions. Under the real-world stress of a firefight, that is more challenging, of course, but someone skilled and conditioned in defensive shooting, and who isn’t under direct fire themselves could do so. > [@Max\_S](#): > > > Chief Ison said that the police could not determine whether Mr. Dicken had a gun permit, but that he was carrying his Glock 9-millimeter handgun legally under the state’s constitutional carry law. 15 rounds out of a 9mm Glock likely makes it a Glock Model 19 (compact full frame with a 15 round magazine and 4 inch/100 mm barrel). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/4 "2022-07-20T22:16:19Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > 15 rounds out of a 9mm Glock likely makes it a Glock Model 19 (compact full frame with a 15 round magazine and 4 inch/100 mm barrel). > > Stranger _ **10** _ rounds over 15 seconds, which opens up the options a bit. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/5 "2022-07-21T00:18:09Z")
Informal, relaxed plinking at my range on my property, I can reliably hit a 12 oz. pop can at 60 ft. I’m 65, a little shakier and with worse vision than when I was 22. Hitting a human size target at twice that distance under stress is pretty good. It would be interesting to know the spread of the 8 shots. It may have been 8 well placed shots to a kill zone or it may have been 7 hits below the knees and one lucky flyer that accidently hit the target in the head. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/6 "2022-07-21T00:39:35Z")
What did the other two rounds hit? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/7 "2022-07-21T01:19:58Z")
The details I heard was that it was 15 seconds from the time the murderous asshole opened fire and him being dead on the ground. I also heard it was 40 yards. The ‘good samaritan’ apparently saw the guy emerge from the bathroom with a rifle and immediately told his girlfriend to get to safety and pulled his gun. When the bad guy opened fire, the good guy opened on him, hitting him 8 times out of 10 shots. The guy died on the spot. If those details are correct, that’s not only great shooting, but good situational awareness and quick thinking. Hitting a moving human target from 40 yards under stress is hard enough. Doing it 8 times out of 10 with a Glock is fantastic. The guy had no military or police training. His grandpa taught him to shoot. Gramps did good. Training his grandson well saved many lives. > [@smithsb](#): > > What did the other two rounds hit? All we know is he didn’t hit any bystanders. They would have gone into the walls or furniture around the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/8 "2022-07-21T01:40:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The guy had no military or police training. His grandpa taught him to shoot. Gramps did good. Training his grandson well saved many lives. And yet, the ‘active shooter’ managed to kill three people and wound two others. Even when the “Good Guy With A Gun” thesis applies in stopping a mass shooting (as it does in only ~2% of mass shooting events) it still resulted in multiple homicides. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/9 "2022-07-21T01:58:52Z")
10 shots in 15 seconds is not “spray and pray”. That’s taking aim and firing quickly but deliberately. Assuming the shots were equally spaced (more or less.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/10 "2022-07-21T02:03:28Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And yet, the ‘active shooter’ managed to kill three people and wound two others. Even when the “Good Guy With A Gun” thesis applies in stopping a mass shooting (as it does in only ~2% of mass shooting events) it still resulted in multiple homicides. - > > Stranger And then there’s this. [https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/](https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/11 "2022-07-21T02:06:47Z")
No one is disputing that. In a crowded food court, you could kill multiple people with a pump shotgun just as quickly, and probably take down a few with just a knife. You are never going to stop lunatics and assholes from killing people if they really want to. In countries without access to guns you get mass stabbings, arson and people using vehicles to mow down crowds. In China in 2010, a man went on a rampage with a bucket loader and killed 17 people and injured 20 others. Also in China in 2014, eight people armed with knives killed 31 people and injured 140 more. In Japan in 2016, a single person armed with a knife went into a care home and killed 19 people and wounded 26 more. In 2017 a man drove into a crowd on Westminster bridge, killing four people and injuring 50. Four months later three men drove a truck through a crowd on London Bridge, then jumped out and started attacking others. Eight people were killed. In 2018 there were two vehicle ramming attacks in NYC that killed a total of nine people. So if you can’t stop the lunatics, the next best thing is to give people the means to defend themselves. Have a look at the very long list of vehicle ramming attacks: > **[Vehicle-ramming attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack)** > > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > A vehicle-ramming attack is an assault in which a perpetrator deliberately rams a vehicle into a building, crowd of people, or another vehicle. According to Stratfor Global Intelligence analysts, this attack represents a relatively new militant tactic that could prove more difficult to prevent than suicide bombings. > Deliberate vehicle-ramming into a crowd of people is a tactic used by terrorists, becoming a major terrorist tactic in the... The we can get into bombings, poisonings, arson, and other ways that have been to kill lots of people. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/12 "2022-07-21T02:25:34Z")
And I just saw this now: > **[Montana park murders: Man drove into CNY family and came out shooting. Baby’s...](https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2022/07/montana-park-murders-man-drove-into-cny-family-and-came-out-shooting-babys-aunt-killed-attacker.html)** > > The man, who has mental health issues, targeted family in horrific attack not far from Glacier National Park, police said. A mentally ill man rammed the family in a truck, then jumped out and opened fire with a shotgun. The Aunt of one of the victims was carrying, and she shot the perp dead before he could kill anyone else. I suspect we will see more stories like this now that concealed carry is much easier. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/13 "2022-07-21T02:33:39Z")
An aside, not a hijack, but does “Constitutional carry” trump the rights of property owners, like the mall here to control people coming onto _their_ property armed? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/14 "2022-07-21T03:02:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Four months later One might wish that mass shootings happened in the US at such a frantic pace. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/15 "2022-07-21T03:32:13Z")
As far as I can tell, no. IC 35-47-2-1, > **[Indiana General Assembly](https://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2022/ic/titles/035)** > > Website for Indiana's General Assembly > (b) A person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if: […] (2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person’s body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person: (A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises; […] > > (c) This chapter may not be construed: (1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property; […] ~Max ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/16 "2022-07-21T05:59:23Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If those details are correct, that’s not only great shooting, but good situational awareness and quick thinking. Hitting a moving human target from 40 yards under stress is hard enough. Doing it 8 times out of 10 with a Glock is fantastic. I’m assuming after the first shot or 3, the target’s only move was downward. The rest would have been insurance, or there were still twitches. Especially if the crazy guy was not moving toward and going for the defender, if it wasn’t instantly a duel. “Trying to retreat to the bathroom” after being hit sounds like there were not any random evasive maneuvers. But still damn good shooting and quick thinking. I wonder how easy it is to pivot, find your attacker, and draw a bead while being hit by one bullet after another. Not easy, I assume. Nor would staying upright be easy. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/17 "2022-07-21T10:43:46Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > An aside, not a hijack, but does “Constitutional carry” trump the rights of property owners, like the mall here to control people coming onto _their_ property armed? According to Handgun Law “No Guns” signs in Indiana do not have the force of law. The worst that can happen to an armed person is the business asks you to leave and then you must. Comparing that consequence with getting murdered why wouldn’t one carry there? As long as you leave when asked you won’t get in any legal trouble. The bad guy certainly doesn’t give a rip about a sign. I have to qualify at least twice per year with my duty pistol and my backup/off duty pistol (Glock 48 & 43X respectively with Shield Arms 15 round mags). The max distance is 25 yards. Doable yet not exactly easy, especially with the smaller barreled 43X. If he made those hits at 40 yards color me impressed. [https://handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf$](https://handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf$) ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/18 "2022-07-21T11:19:39Z")
Replying to Stranger > And yet, the ‘active shooter’ managed to kill three people and wound two others. Even when the “Good Guy With A Gun” thesis applies in stopping a mass shooting (as it does in only ~2% of mass shooting events) it still resulted in multiple homicides . You are correct, however this isn’t a failure of the Good Guy. The fact is that almost ALL defenders are REACTING to what a suspect does. Civilians or police for the most part aren’t allowed to just shoot on suspicion and have to wait until the Bad Guy makes the first move. Sadly means that some friendly casualties are inevitable. Being on defense means you are always behind the curve. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/19 "2022-07-21T12:03:32Z")
**Moderator Note** There are quite a few posts in this thread that are out of bounds for FQ. Let’s keep this thread factual. Let’s also avoid getting into the gun control debate. This is not GD. If you want to discuss gun control, feel free, just do so in the correct forum. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285/20 "2022-07-21T12:32:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I suspect we will see more stories like this now that concealed carry is much easier. I didn’t realize it got easier in Canada? Did that change? Honestly asking. If this is out of bounds for FQ, feel free to ignore. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indiana-shooting-firearm-question/968285.md?page=2)