# Indians and the naming of sports teams. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401 "2005-08-03T07:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MAGunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@MAGunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAGunter)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/1 "2005-08-03T07:09:34Z")
It’s been an ongoing issue for a few years, but not one that I’ve seen discussed here in the recent past. Here’s the article that brought me to bring it up, from the Dallas Morning News: [Will Indian icons stay on the team?](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/search/index.jsp?process=true&search=true&site=DMN&advanced=false&advanced2=true&keywordtype=allkeywords&sortresults1=lastupdatedAsc&sortresults2=lastupdatedAsc&lastupdated=anytime&simplescoresort=false&searchquery=Will+Indian+icons+stay+on+the+team%3F&point=Go) \*\*(Link to search for article: registration required.) Posted article abridged. Please do not post copyrighted articles in their entirety.\*\* > [@](#): > > Will Indian icons stay on the team? > > As NCAA review starts, even some tribes are split > > By ARNOLD HAMILTON / The Dallas Morning News > > OKLAHOMA CITY – The Apaches are facing extinction. So are the Seminoles. And even the Sioux. > > It’s not the tribes themselves in peril, but the century-old tradition of the nation’s academic institutions co-opting American Indian nicknames and mascots for their sports teams. > > In the 33 years since the University of Oklahoma dropped its gridiron-dancing Little Red, more than two-thirds of the 3,000-plus U.S. schools and colleges whose teams used Indian symbols have abandoned them. > > And Wednesday, collegiate sports’ top governing body, the NCAA, will further review their use amid increased warnings from tribes, educators and mental health experts about the potentially harmful effects of such symbolism on children. > > “It’s really a vestige of an older generation,” said Barbara Munson, an Oneida Nation member and retired Wisconsin educator. “It really should have left the culture along with black-faced minstrel shows.” > > Those fighting to save American Indian imagery in sports regard it as another case of political correctness run amok. > > “There’s always going to be lines that get crossed – no matter how P.C. our culture gets,” said Steve Denson, a Chickasaw Nation member who serves as director of diversity at the Cox School of Business at Southern Methodist University. > > He doesn’t like the use of such nicknames as Savages, but he opposes eliminating all American Indian mascots and symbols. > > . . . > > The NCAA began considering the issue three years ago in the wake of debate about whether it would schedule championship events in states that fly the Confederate flag or incorporate it into their state flags. > > The association asked 30 member institutions with American Indian nicknames to evaluate themselves to determine if the practice is offensive or contrary to NCAA principles. > > Since then, two schools on the list and one that wasn’t announced that they are dropping their Native American mascots – the Stonehill College Chieftains (now Skyhawks) in Massachusetts, the University of West Georgia Braves (undecided) and the Southeast Missouri State University Indians (Redhawks). > Meeting today > > The NCAA’s Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee reviewed the reports first, in June – then forwarded undisclosed recommendations to an NCAA executive committee panel. > > E-mail [ahamilton@dallasnews.com](mailto:ahamilton@dallasnews.com) I personally am a liberal, but a staunch opponent of PCness. I’m white. Indians are Indians. Blacks are blacks. Hispanics are browns. Asians are Asians. Whatever, I’m just not going to call any ethnic group by some horribly sensitive name. Hell, i’d call Indians ‘reds’ were it not for the whole communist thing and Asians yellows were it not for the whole cowardice thing. Most blacks are no more African than I am French, and I even have a French passport due to birthright (in case of the draft, hehe). I don’t demand to be called Euro-American and likewise I think African-American is BS. If you want to talk skin color, talk skin color. If you want to talk nationality, talk nationality. But all of that aside, I think the idea of re-naming sports teams because it might offend someone is garbage. Being in Dallas, I hate the Redskins (Foreskins), but would hate to see their name changed. Similarly, I’d hate to see Cleveland (MLB), Atlanta (MLB), FSU (NCAA), and other get their names changed because of a few righteous protestors. Could it be potentially offensive? Sure, but so could most team names. Hell, the Minnesota Vikings I’m sure offend someone out there. Here in Dallas there was a big hubbub a few years ago over a ‘Whites Only’ plaque that was kept over a water fountain, obviously not to mean such but as a sign of times gone by. A sign of our history. Do storied sports franchises not earn that same right? This sort of PCness, well hell all PCness, irks me. Please tell me why I’m horribly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/2 "2005-08-03T14:02:10Z")
> [@MAGunter](#): > > \But all of that aside, I think the idea of re-naming sports teams because it might offend someone is garbage. Being in Dallas, I hate the Redskins (Foreskins), but would hate to see their name changed.\ As much as it pains me as a 'Skins fan to say this but I agree with you, a CowGirl’s fan. In the words of Billy Shakespeare "“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, By any other word would smell as sweet.” –From Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) Hail to the Redskins! ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/3 "2005-08-03T14:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > But Mr. Narcomey of the Oklahoma Seminole tribe said he doesn’t think the matter is so complex. He views the symbols as “dehumanizing” and “stereotypical.” > > And he said Americans would not tolerate “teams named the Denver Darkies or the Houston Honkies or the Washington State White Boys.” Yep. Americans would never tolerate names like: **Notre Dame Fighting Irish** , **Syracuse Orangemen** , or as the OP noted, the **Minnesota Vikings**. I’m all for getting rid of cartoon sterotypes as mascots, but I don’t see anything wrong with respectful representations. Of course, I’m not American Indian, so I guess I may not be the best judge. Although, I don’t want to be lumped in with the OP’s “no PC, none of the time” stance. Pash ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/4 "2005-08-03T14:51:53Z")
Yeah, but what is the purpose of not changing them? Who does it hurt to change the Indians or the Redskins to something else? Nobody. Or at least nobody who is being rational about it. Whereas we know who it hurts to leave them the way they are. It seems plain to me what the utilitarian response would be, and I see no reason which would counsel against accepting that response. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/5 "2005-08-03T14:54:16Z")
Atlanta’s minor league team from 1901 until 1965 were the Crackers. They were so hugely successful, and so closely associated with the city, that Atlanta’s Negro league team was called the Black Crackers. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/6 "2005-08-03T14:58:59Z")
> [@Madd Maxx](#): > > As much as it pains me as a 'Skins fan to say this but I agree with you, a CowGirl’s fan. In the words of Billy Shakespeare "“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, By any other word would smell as sweet.” > –From Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) Homer: Not if you called them stench blossoms! Bart: Or stick-weeds! ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/7 "2005-08-03T15:02:46Z")
> [@Pashnish](#): > > Syracuse Orangemen P.S. I forgot to note in my post that Syracuse did recently change their nickname from the **Orangemen** to the **Orange** , but it was more of a marketing decision than a political one - even though the Orangemen nickname originated from the school’s Protestant roots. Pash ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/8 "2005-08-03T15:39:42Z")
Some of this makes sense. But when Marquette University changed their team name from the Warriors to the Golden Eagles in the '80s, things got ridiculous. I mean, even if you buy the whole PC thing, isn’t having noble warriors in one’s past something to be proud of. Good news: After the school board in Nyack, NY, voted to change the name and logo of the high school’s Nyack Indians, people took the matter into their own hands. You can now by school rings and logowear with the old name and logo privately. http://www.nyackindians.com/index.html Ain’t America great?! ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/9 "2005-08-03T15:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Among high schools, records show 45 in Texas and 59 in Oklahoma, the former Indian Territory, still use Indian images. Could be a problem for the Okemos School District near me. The team is called the Okemos Chieftains. Okemos was a Native American chief. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/10 "2005-08-03T15:47:17Z")
> [@Pashnish Ewing](#): > > Yep. Americans would never tolerate names like: > **Notre Dame Fighting Irish** , **Syracuse Orangemen** , or as the OP noted, the **Minnesota Vikings**. One more thing – the Notre Dame and Syracuse nicknames were crafted by people of that group – they were originally statements of tribal identity, if you will. I doubt very much there were any Seminoles in the Athletics Department at Florida State who thought the name would be a good idea. There’s a big difference between “we are X” and “let’s name a team after some group that none of us belong to because they have a reputation for savagery.” I assume the Vikings are a somewhat similar situation, but even if not, vikings were neither oppresed by the U.S. government nor libeled by the U.S. popular media in the way American Indians have been. So there is reason to be sensitive to slights against Indians that we would not find as offensive if said about other groups. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/11 "2005-08-03T15:54:00Z")
People generally name their sports teams after something that they respect whether it be an animal or a group of people. I think the hubub over native names for teams is less about offense and more about an attempt at exerting power. Any complaints about silly looking mascots is without merit in my opinion. Pretty much all mascots are silly looking. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ass_For_A_Hat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/12 "2005-08-03T16:00:40Z")
> [@MAGunter](#): > > Here in Dallas there was a big hubbub a few years ago over a ‘Whites Only’ plaque that was kept over a water fountain, obviously not to mean such but as a sign of times gone by. A sign of our history. > > Do storied sports franchises not earn that same right? I dispute that this was the original (or even current) intent behind many of these team names. In particular, the Cleveland Indians logo does not suggest this sort of reverence for Native Americans. At least not to me anyway. Also, I’ll sign my name to everything **Cliffy** ’s written in the thread to this point. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/13 "2005-08-03T16:23:54Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > One more thing – the Notre Dame and Syracuse nicknames were crafted by people of that group – they were originally statements of tribal identity, if you will. I doubt very much there were any Seminoles in the Athletics Department at Florida State who thought the name would be a good idea. There’s a big difference between “we are X” and “let’s name a team after some group that none of us belong to because they have a reputation for savagery.” These are good points, but I was trying to refute the guy in the article’s claim that Americans would never stand for such names. This issue doesn’t really push my buttons much either way, but I do think your “what is the purpose of not changing them?” view is a little simplistic. Let’s not forget, college sports is a huge business. And like other businesses, branding is very important to them. So what is Florida State to do? One group says it’s okay and honors their traditions, another finds it offensive. Do they spend and potentially lose millions of dollars making the changes based on the offended group? And how large does a group have to be before changes should be made? What if other groups object to other non-Indian nicknames that they find offensive? Where is the line drawn, and how much do the schools have to spend/lose on these changes before enough will be enough? I’m not trying to get all slippery slope on you, I’m just trying to point out it’s more complicated than “why not just change it”. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/14 "2005-08-03T16:42:05Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > I doubt very much there were any Seminoles in the Athletics Department at Florida State who thought the name would be a good idea. No, but the tribe as whole seems to [think](http://www.fsu.com/pages/2005/06/17/historic_vote.html) so: > [@](#): > > Seminole Tribe of Florida has an established relationship with Florida State University, which includes its permission to use the name, ‘Seminole,’ as well as various Seminole symbols and images, such as Chief Osceola, for educational purposes and the Seminole Tribe of Florida wishes to go on record that it has not opposed, and, in fact, supports the continued use of the name ‘Seminole.’ ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/15 "2005-08-03T16:44:32Z")
I think it’s worth noting that there is a difference between calling a team “Warriors” and “Redskins.” I’ve never heard Indians (Native Americans) fond of the term. I’d liken it to The “Fighting Irish” or the “Filthy Mics.” Oh…I’m Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/16 "2005-08-03T16:46:44Z")
As someone who sometimes reads about this on the other side of the Atlantic I’d be interested in the reasoning behind these names being offensive (to the ethnic groups being referred to). I could understand an ethnic reference being offensive if - the wording of the reference is, in itself, considered an ethnic slur, or - the entity that references the ethnic group in its name is despised by society, or - the reference stereotypes the ethnic group but none of this seems to apply, from what I can see. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/17 "2005-08-03T17:52:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Atlanta’s minor league team from 1901 until 1965 were the Crackers. > > They were so hugely successful, and so closely associated with the city, that Atlanta’s Negro league team was called the Black Crackers. [Hijack]My Grandfather played for the Crackers before WW2. I love the memoribilia he kept. I thought the name was pretty funny actually.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/18 "2005-08-03T18:26:10Z")
My great-grandfather played semi-pro ball in the teens and twenties, but he wasn’t nearly good enough to play for a team as big as the Crackers, let alone the major leagues. Your grandfather must have been one hell of a ballplayer. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/19 "2005-08-03T18:38:33Z")
As I wrote in the recent “Worst Sports Team Name/Logo” thread, which I would link to if I knew how, please refer to the March 4, 2002 edition of Sports Illustrated magazine, “The Indian Wars” by S.L. Price with a sidebar by Andrea Woo, pp 66-72. Those articles reported that according to a poll by the Peter Harris Research Group, that with a margin of error of plus or minus 4%, 83% of the Indians polled said that professional teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots or symbols. When pollsters asked Native Americans about the Washington Redskins, the Cleveland Indians and Atlanta Braves they found no great resentment toward the names. Putting it charitably, the authors said that there’s a near total disconnect between Indian activists and the rank and file Native American population on this issue. I say if the great majority of Indians aka Native Americans aka Cherokee, Sioux, etc, aren’t offended by the sports teams’ names then there’s no reason for this white male to be offended by them either. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401/20 "2005-08-03T18:44:21Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > I could understand an ethnic reference being offensive if > > - the wording of the reference is, in itself, considered an ethnic slur, Most of the ones that could have been connoted as a slur have been abandoned (Red Raiders, etc.). The only one that this still applies to is the Washington Redskins. Redskins is most definitely a slur. > [@](#): > > - the entity that references the ethnic group in its name is despised by society, Not so much. > [@](#): > > - the reference stereotypes the ethnic group This is sometimes the case, as well. Witness [url=“[http://www.crwflags.com/art/pins/sports/mlb/teamsal/indwahoo.jpg](http://www.crwflags.com/art/pins/sports/mlb/teamsal/indwahoo.jpg)”]Chief Wahoo [/quote] . The Tomhawk Chop isn’t particularly loved by native groups either, I understand. Nor most sports fans. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indians-and-the-naming-of-sports-teams/315401.md?page=2)