# India's PM Modi and his support for nonsense **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632 "2019-08-14T01:37:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/1 "2019-08-14T01:37:03Z")
As an insider I prefer to laugh at the various Judeo-Christian crazinesses, but it’s sad to see the governing party of a nation that has made great strides since independence lead it down a path of mysticism and pseudoscience. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has chosen to ally with the rubes and chaw-soy-bacons of his land by supporting the lunatic beliefs of Hindu “scientists” out to create a false narrative of India’s early supremacy in the sciences, created by the gods up to 9000 years ago. In the [_Deccan Herald_](https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/modi-and-indian-science-a-legacy-best-forgotten-717095.html) Prasenjit Chowdhury writes > [@](#): > > Call it saffronisation or a vain attempt at reviving an imagined past – it makes us a laughing stock when a person as high as our prime minister proclaims, as he did in late 2014, at the opening ceremony of a hospital in Mumbai that modern medical achievements — plastic surgery, cloning and in-vitro fertilisation — were all practised in India’s ancient past; that Lord Ganesha’s elephant-head is proof that advanced transplant surgery existed, and that the ways Kunti conceived in the Mahabharata were evidence of the practice of in-vitro fertilisation. It is said that Ganesha’s head is a real elephant’s head grafted onto a human torso, meaning the ancients beat some serious rejection as well as the “simple” surgery. The sub-headline states, “Modi will go down as the prime minister who caused irreparable damage to the cause of Indian science”. I’d’ve pulled that punch since “irreparable” is too strong a word, but it will cause damage for the foreseeable future when India needs all the usable science it can get to support its people, and it won’t get it through myths and bullshit. India can only fulfill Modi’s promise to put as many as three astronauts, or “vyomanauts,” into orbit by 2022 if its scientists are not saddled with the dual goals of a successful mission and pleasing a government that claims that much of modern science was first developed by gods thousands of years ago. A review in [_Nature_](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02243-x) explains what went wrong: > [@](#): > > …since the 1990s, Hindu nationalism has steadily gathered strength in India. In 2014, the Bharatiya Janata Party gained a parliamentary majority for the first time, with Narendra Modi as prime minister. The party was re-elected in 2019, with a larger margin of the vote — 37.5%. A notable aspect of the party’s nationalist narratives is the meshing of science, pseudoscience and myth with political messages. Now, these entangled narratives are explored in _Holy Science_ by Banu Subramaniam, a scholar of women, gender and sexuality studies. > > This form of nationalism has found favour, she argues, by reinforcing an alluring idea of an India rooted in an ancient civilization where science, technology and philosophy thrived; an India that can be restored to grandeur by linking to its past. Subramaniam writes that this idea has led to a “scientized religion” and a “religionized science”, creating “a vision of India as an archaic modernity”. In recent years, “experts” have said ancient Indians had spacecraft, the internet, and nuclear weapons—long before Western science came on the scene. They have even thrown out Einstein and Newton, with one “scientist” claiming Newton had failed to “understand gravitational repulsive forces” and said gravitational waves should be renamed “Narendra Modi Waves.” _Science_ says > [@](#): > > Such claims and other forms of pseudoscience rooted in Hindu nationalism have been on the rise since Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power in 2014. They’re not just an embarrassment, some researchers say, but a threat to science and education that stifles critical thinking and could hamper India’s development. “Modi has initiated what may be called ‘Project Assault on Scientific Rationality,’” says Gauhar Raza, former chief scientist at the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), a conglomerate of almost 40 national labs. “A religio-mythical culture is being propagated in the country’s scientific institutions aggressively.”. Yes, India has been given short shrift in the West for its scientific accomplishments, going back as long as Western science, but that is not balanced by insisting that myths were true nor that [cow dung and urine, as sold by Modi’s BJP](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1485776/Cow-dung-becomes-a-cure-all-in-India.html) cures everything. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/2 "2019-08-14T01:44:54Z")
This nonsense has been percolating for decades and is part of same extremist radical conservatism that has infected the whole world. One of its tactics is to weaponize ignorance in the service of nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/3 "2019-08-14T02:05:10Z")
There is AFAICT a grain of truth in the plastic-surgery claim, inasmuch as there are [ancient Indian texts that discuss various surgical procedures including rhinoplasty for damaged noses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita). However, there is AFAIK no evidence that modern plastic surgery techniques are derived from ancient Indian ones. And unsurprisingly, claims of ancient Indian space travel or genetic cloning or IVF have no basis whatsoever in archaeological or textual historical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/4 "2019-08-14T02:57:41Z")
And what happened to all of this technology? Who suppressed it and why? They can’t pin that one on the Brits as it would have needed to be done a long time ago. And why did none of their neighbors absorb/borrow/steal some of the tech? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/5 "2019-08-14T05:35:00Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And what happened to all of this technology? Who suppressed it and why? They can’t pin that one on the Brits as it would have needed to be done a long time ago. And why did none of their neighbors absorb/borrow/steal some of the tech? They all went to Egypt to build the pyramids, of course. One ray of hope - even more Indian scientists will come to the US, assuming Trump lets them in of course. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/6 "2019-08-14T11:33:30Z")
When writing the OP I was concerned that I would come across as condescending and bearing the White Man’s Burden of dragging the Indian people out of intellectual darkness into modernity, and I know that I did, but c’mon!! Modi and the BJP are bent on taking a country that was becoming an intellectual and scientific powerhouse back into the days of oxcarts and medicine that is literally cow piss. And, for what it’s worth, there are no mentions of [Ganesha](https://books.google.com/books?id=oF-Hqih3pBAC&pg=PA6&dq=Ganesha+worship+began+century&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Ganesha%20worship%20began%20century&f=false) before the second century CE–he’s not nearly as ancient as people believe. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/7 "2019-08-14T17:17:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > They all went to Egypt to build the pyramids, of course. What an absurd suggestion. They got onto their spaceships and flew back to Alpha Centauri, of course. I mean, duh. Regards, Shodan von Daniken ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/8 "2019-08-14T17:35:16Z")
An ancient civilization that developed nuclear weapons, rather than nuclear power plants, is really making a statement. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/9 "2019-08-14T19:27:00Z")
How does a prime minister claiming that an elephant had his head transplanted to a human stop people from practicing science? Is he transferring funding to elephant transplant research? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/10 "2019-08-14T19:40:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How does a prime minister claiming that an elephant had his head transplanted to a human stop people from practicing science? It stops a large number of people from correctly understanding science, as a linked quote in the OP explained quite clearly: > [@](#): > > Such claims and other forms of pseudoscience rooted in Hindu nationalism have been on the rise since Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power in 2014. They’re not just an embarrassment, some researchers say, but a threat to science and education that stifles critical thinking and could hamper India’s development. “Modi has initiated what may be called ‘Project Assault on Scientific Rationality,’” says Gauhar Raza, former chief scientist at the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), a conglomerate of almost 40 national labs. “A religio-mythical culture is being propagated in the country’s scientific institutions aggressively.”. When influential people try to entangle religious belief with scientific fact, it obscures and unnecessarily politicizes actual science. I have no problem with devout Hindus believing that the deity Shiva miraculously transplanted an elephant head onto the decapitated body of Ganesha, any more than I have a problem with devout Christians believing that the incarnate deity Jesus was executed and miraculously came to life again after three days. But it’s a problem when leaders start encouraging the public to treat these religious beliefs as scientific claims. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/11 "2019-08-14T20:05:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Is he transferring funding to elephant transplant research? In effect, yes. The BJP’s story is not about a miracle, but instead it’s about an actual surgical procedure which has been lost in the mists of time, implying that the devout can perform it, too. This takes class time and research money away from studying real, workable science. And the supporters of Vedic Science infest his government. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/12 "2019-08-14T21:09:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > They all went to Egypt to build the pyramids, of course. > > One ray of hope - even more Indian scientists will come to the US, assuming Trump lets them in of course. Why would the come to the US when we’re going down the same path that India is? The only difference is the name, just change Hindu fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists. They’d be better off going some place like New Zealand, Norway, or Germany, and helping to prevent those countries from going down the same path that India and the US are currently traveling. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/13 "2019-09-18T11:32:20Z")
Plastic surgery almost definitely was invented and practiced in ancient India. In 600 BCE, the detailed [Sushtura Samhita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita) was written. > [@](#): > > The Suśruta-saṃhitā, in its extant form, in 184 chapters contains descriptions of 1,120 illnesses, 700 medicinal plants, 64 preparations from mineral sources and 57 preparations based on animal sources. The text discusses surgical techniques of making incisions, probing, extraction of foreign bodies, alkali and thermal cauterization, tooth extraction, excisions, and trocars for draining abscess, draining hydrocele and ascitic fluid, removal of the prostate gland, urethral stricture dilatation, vesicolithotomy, hernia surgery, caesarian section, management of haemorrhoids, fistulae, laparotomy and management of intestinal obstruction, perforated intestines and accidental perforation of the abdomen with protrusion of omentum and the principles of fracture management, viz., traction, manipulation, apposition and stabilization including some measures of rehabilitation and fitting of prosthetic. It enumerates six types of dislocations, twelve varieties of fractures, and classification of the bones and their reaction to the injuries, and gives a classification of eye diseases including cataract surgery. The West did NOT invent plastic surgery - India did, thousands of years before Western medicine. Shalihotra, who lived a thousand years before Sushruta, was perhaps the world’s first veterinarian, writing about illnesses of horses and their cures. I have lived in India for decades and known a handful of scientists; it is my opinion that it is ridiculous to claim that in India a wave of pseudo-science threatens to drown or suppress hard science. India’s Moon and Mars programs have been largely successful. We have a demonstrated ASAT capability, nuclear capability, and manufacture our own ballistic missiles. We are nowhere near the US or China, but we are getting there. BTW, Modi, who you diss in your OP, has been a tremendous supporter of Indian science and technology, and has provided consistent support for India’s S&T programs, though as a % of GDP the budget remains a lamentable 0.7%. There is a lot of progress to be made, but Modi is NOT taking the country back to the stone age, despite some questionable remarks, thank you very much for your concern. Media reportage in India on Hinduism is extremely biased and is politically contentious. So is the dating of various Hindu epics such as Mahabharata, which all extant accounts say was written by Ganesha. The Hindu calendar says the Mahabharata took place 5152 years ago, while various scholars date it to at least 800 BCE. Ganesha could not possibly have been unknown until the 2nd century CE. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/14 "2019-09-18T22:30:16Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Why would the come to the US when we’re going down the same path that India is? The only difference is the name, just change Hindu fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists. They’d be better off going some place like New Zealand, Norway, or Germany, and helping to prevent those countries from going down the same path that India and the US are currently traveling. They come for the tech jobs (I said scientists, not anyone) and the Bay Area is pretty much fundamentalist free. At least in positions of authority. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/15 "2019-09-20T22:35:55Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > Media reportage in India on Hinduism is extremely biased and is politically contentious. So is the dating of various Hindu epics such as Mahabharata, which all extant accounts say was written by Ganesha. The Hindu calendar says the Mahabharata took place 5152 years ago, while various scholars date it to at least 800 BCE. Ganesha could not possibly have been unknown until the 2nd century CE. Sorting out the tangled historiographic threads here: - As Y. Krishan notes in [this article](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3249845?seq=7#metadata_info_tab_contents), the idea of an elephant-headed, pot-bellied, obstacle-removing deity as part of the Hindu pantheon emerges in post-epic literature in the Gupta period of the early Common Era. So yes, 2nd century CE is a reasonable date for the **historical** development of the concept of the deity Ganesha with the characteristics and attributes that he is known by today. - Epic literature viewed as a historical phenomenon can’t be assumed to coexist with the events described within it. The “in-universe” timeline of the Sanskrit epics traditionally places the Mahabharata war in 3102 BCE, and modern historians mostly think that it symbolizes and describes in legendary fashion real-world conflicts perhaps early in the first millennium BCE, as you note. But [the _Mahabharata_ epic as we know it wasn’t compiled in a unified form until around or after the start of the Common Era](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/589783?seq=8#metadata_info_tab_contents). - The story of Ganesha as the scribe of the _Mahabharata_ at the dictation of its author, the sage Vyasa, is a [later interpolation in the very complex development of the epic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha#Rise_to_prominence), which is also consistent with the hypothesis that the traditional view of Ganesha as a Hindu deity originated in the early Common Era. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/16 "2019-09-21T00:09:57Z")
Elephant head transplant, eh ? Well, it’s not any dafter than the Head of Vecna story I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/17 "2019-09-22T12:02:37Z")
The Indians should ask the Russians how well Lysenkoism worked out for them… ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/18 "2019-09-22T15:25:32Z")
I’d look into the whole multiple arms thing myself. Think of the waitstaff you could create. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/19 "2019-09-25T14:42:54Z")
I think the OP comes off as oddly surprised that India is susceptible to the same sort of ideological nonsense as every other country. Remember, this is a place that was being torn apart by sectarian violence and rioting while the world watched Gandhi complain about it. > [@mandala](#): > > I have lived in India for decades and known a handful of scientists; it is my opinion that it is ridiculous to claim that in India a wave of pseudo-science threatens to drown or suppress hard science. India’s Moon and Mars programs have been largely successful. We have a demonstrated ASAT capability, nuclear capability, and manufacture our own ballistic missiles. We are nowhere near the US or China, but we are getting there. “Drowning” or “suppressing” hard science is not the issue. Interfering with actual science is bad enough. All of the accomplishments you mention predate the Modi government, and were presided over by largely centrist administrations. Does India lag because Narendra Modi thinks ancient Indians put elephant heads on people? Of course not. But it doesn’t help India’s global standing when he says stupid shit, and it certainly doesn’t advance domestic development. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632/20 "2019-09-26T17:24:44Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > Plastic surgery almost definitely was invented and practiced in ancient India. In 600 BCE, the detailed [Sushtura Samhita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita) was written. > > … > > The West did NOT invent plastic surgery - India did, thousands of years before Western medicine. Did I claim that it did? No, I did not. If by listing genuine accomplishments are you claiming that an elephant’s head was successfully transplanted onto a human’s body? I hope not. It’s not a simple rhinoplasty. > [@](#): > > Media reportage in India on Hinduism is extremely biased and is politically contentious. In my limited knowledge it is as breathless and unreliable as the Weekly World News’ coverage of Bat Boy. > [@](#): > > So is the dating of various Hindu epics such as Mahabharata, which all extant accounts say was written by Ganesha. The Hindu calendar says the Mahabharata took place 5152 years ago, while various scholars date it to at least 800 BCE. Ganesha could not possibly have been unknown until the 2nd century CE. Yet nobody mentioned him before that. I spent quite a lot of my nearly valueless time looking for as reliable of sources as I could find and piecing together a coherent, for me, OP. I respect the Indian people and am pleased by their nation’s progress since independence. I don’t want that squandered by Modi and his political hacks. As you said, India invests a very small portion of its GDP on science and technology, and every rupee wasted on proving cow piss and shit can cure whatever ails you is taken away from real science. If I may let my inner Archaeologists speak, where are the artefacts showing that India’s ancient days of technical glory even existed? One would expect that any people who could invent supersonic flight would leave a trace of two, on the ground or in the annals of their contemporaries, but Egypt and China failed to mention it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indias-pm-modi-and-his-support-for-nonsense/838632.md?page=2)