# Indie rock: the new white kids' music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 16, 2005, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934 "2005-09-16T06:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/21 "2005-09-16T18:03:18Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Nicely done, **goitazi** - you’ve been listening. > > I want my Rock to be Dangerous, Hooky and Well-constructed > > Dangerous - something that makes parents worry, the way original rock and punk did. Maybe due to subject matter, maybe due to delivery, maybe due to having an “in” that kids like and parents don’t get. > > Hooky - has a real riff or hook to it - think Satisfaction, Day Tripper, what have you. > > Well-Constructed - works within a variant of the “3 chords and the truth” model and still sounds fresh. Uses the restrictions as a way to force creativity and doesn’t meander into jam-band or prog excessiveness. > > If I hear music that sounds like this, I listen - I could give two shits about what Box of Stereotypes a band has been put in. Weezer - really like songs like Hash Pipe because it fits these criteria. > > A lot of the bands mentioned as Indie don’t fit this criteria - too much sensitive singer-songwriter injected, so even if the lyrics are dangerous, they don’t sound dangerous and at times, not hooky either… > > I am glad that kids have new music they can call their own, but some of the new stuff that meets the criteria I list above doesn’t fit. The New Garage bands - the Hives, The Strokes, The Kings of Leon, etc. - do a pretty good job heading in this direction… The Stone Roses. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/22 "2005-09-16T18:12:05Z")
Indie means the same thing alternative does. No longer a class but a genre. I… don’t think the White Stripes, the Hives, and the Strokes count as Indie, though. Killers might, but I’m not sure. I also think Indie rock tends towards the emo. Jimmy Eat World can rock, sure, but… emo. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/23 "2005-09-16T18:14:55Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > The Stone Roses. There ya go - great, great example. First album is _essential_. ---
**Author:** ![goitazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9a140/32.png) [@goitazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goitazi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/24 "2005-09-16T18:53:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by fusoya_ > Well then how would you define indie as a style? Crap rock? The only band mentioned in this entire thread that I don’t think completely sucks is The Killers, and if they aren’t New Wave (revival), then I don’t know what is! Defining indie rock _is_ difficult, yet, as I said in my last post it is pointless to use the term to describe bands on indie labels, both because it is quite clearly used by people to mean a style of music, and because, when they signed to a major, bands like Death Cab or the Replacements didn’t fundamentally change their style or approach. The concept of indie rock as a genre is reasonably outlined by [this All Music article](http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2687), although even that one has some problems. While the overview would have perhaps been accurate a few years ago, for instance, today it is patently untrue to suggest that indie rock has no commercial potential. The easiest way to understand it is that indie is a very broad term that refers to a vast array of genres (of which I would think new-new-wave or whatever is one), many of which have little to do with each other. What does alt country have to do with math rock? What does noise have to do with slowcore? What does screamo have to do with shoegazer? Essentially, indie is a term for a certain music made with a certain style, ethos and aesthetic. It tends to emphasize values such as indie-label-style grass-roots promotion, a DIY aesthetic etc., but even these values do not provide a catch-all guide. The Killers, for instance (and the Bravery even more so) are almost overnight sensations who probably share more in terms of their route to success with Good Charlotte than they do with the Pixies or Built To Spill. But if bands like Interpol or Bloc Party are considered to be indie, and it seems reasonable they should be, when a stylistically similar band such as the Killers comes along, it seems arbitrary to eject them from the clique simply because of their rapid success or high sales figures. Indie, really is the best adjective we have to describe a style of music that has arisen from the same general grass roots culture, which has existed for roughly 20-25 years (I would guess). At one point it was called college rock - but then the college rock bands started getting played on non-college radio. The next wave was called alternative, but then that became the mainstream. The next wave was called indie, and now many of them are signing with majors. I’m sure a new term for the same concept will come along soon, but the point is that although the term changes, the concept has essentially remained the same. And the term does not define the concept - it only described the concept using the most readily recognizable aspect of it at the time. So, I’m sorry for the long-winded, indefinite explanation. But the fact remains, it is a lot easier to recognize that …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead is indie rock and Linkin Park isn’t than it is to explain why. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/25 "2005-09-16T18:58:43Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > No, but the OP only seems to have modern indie rock in mind, which seems to be very heavy on the emo these days. 9 times out of 10 when a young person talks about indie rock, that’s what they mean. We must run in very different music circles, then. When I discuss so-called “indie rock” on line in forums such as the local WXRT message board Sound Opinions, indie rock refers to all the bands I’ve mentioned, and includes bands like The White Stripes, The Killers, The Hives, The Strokes, Bloc Party, Franz Ferdinand, The Futureheads, etc… Indie rock is absolutely not a cohesive sound, and “emo,” once again, in the circles I discuss these sorts of things, is eschewed by most indie rockers I know. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/26 "2005-09-16T19:22:25Z")
I have always been of the opinion that at least 90% of everything is mediocre at best, complete crap at worst… “indie rock” included. The new wimpiness grates on me something terrible, but it can and has been done well. Consider Jonathan Richman or something truly indie like [Chet](http://www.hivestudios.net/hive_fi/hive007.php). But most of those cardigan wearing crybabies can kiss my ass. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/27 "2005-09-16T19:38:26Z")
> [@vl\_mungo](#): > > I have always been of the opinion that at least 90% of everything is mediocre at best, complete crap at worst… “indie rock” included. The new wimpiness grates on me something terrible, but it can and has been done well. Consider Jonathan Richman or something truly indie like [Chet](http://www.hivestudios.net/hive_fi/hive007.php). But most of those cardigan wearing crybabies can kiss my ass. hee hee! +1 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/28 "2005-09-16T19:43:09Z")
The funny thing is, a couple folks here have implied that “indie” and “emo” seem to be nearly synonymous these days, and despite this, only five of the bands I’ve seen mentioned here are emo by any stretch of the imagination, and only one or two really are. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/29 "2005-09-16T19:45:52Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > Said the metal fan. 😉 Long live rock and roll. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/30 "2005-09-16T20:08:21Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > I highly reccommend the New Pornographers. > > It’s really important to understand that emo and indie are not the same thing. The New Pornographers are awesome. And if **even sven** wants homoeroticism, hasn’t she heard “Michael” by Franz Ferdinand? Catchy song. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/31 "2005-09-16T20:13:41Z")
There’s a lot of Rock and Roll that isn’t indie/emo music. Lately I’ve been listening to a lot of Clutch and a little bit of local heros The Hidden Hand. **Ultrafilter** and **Indygirl** probably know more about this than I do. There’s a lot of music out there if you don’t like rap and you don’t want to listen to a bunch of…checks forum…pretty people. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/32 "2005-09-17T01:03:13Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I also think Indie rock tends towards the emo. Jimmy Eat World can rock, sure, but… emo. Wrong. Emo is emo, and belongs in the same classification as pop “punk” such as Good Charlotte and Simple Plan. Granted, I haven’t listened to the radio in a while, but the only real indie band I’ve heard on the radio here in Philly in the last year is Modest Mouse. Though I have heard rumors that Interpol gets some play. Although its coming out into the mainstream, it still seems to be isolated to movie soundtracks like Garden State (The Shins and Iron & Wine), which I feel is a big factor in indie rocks explosion, in addition to guest appearances by more obscure bands on shows like the OC. I hear the New Pornographers and Jeff Buckley used all the time as background music on shows like Made on MTV, and yet, oddly enough, they never actually PLAY the songs or videos for such groups on that network. That baffles. Honestly this explosion troubles me. Recently I saw Modest Mouse, and the house was packed with people who just didn’t belong there at all. Drunken frat boys and girls who looked like they just came from the Aeropostale. A girl almost broke her neck because she came crowd surfing over me and before I even recognized what the huge blur speeding over my head was, she hit the ground and almost took out two other girls with her. These kinds of things are not the norm at typical indie shows. Pretty disruptive when I’m there to ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. But then again, what the fuck would any of them know, the only song they reacted to was Float On. Most of the crowd got rather impatient with the fact that only 8 of the 18 song set list were songs from Good News for People Who Love Bad News. I got a kick out of it though, because as someone who’s actually a fan of their’s I knew most of the songs, and the ones I didn’t know I was still able to appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/33 "2005-09-17T01:38:18Z")
Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh! I’m so indie that my shirt don’t fit you wonder out loud ‘frontalot yo why you come so ill-equipped?’ because being all prepared to get on the mic is selling out and I ain’t even about to relinquish indie clout I look confused, like I just got out of bed, my rhyme style reflects this use my overdeveloped sense of irony to deflect dis- missiles, exploding all around me unpromoted, don’t know how you found me soundly situated in obscurityland famous in inverse proportion to how cool I am and should I ever garner triple-digit fans you can tell me then there’s someone I ain’t indier than _Indier Than Thou_, MC Frontalot ---
**Author:** ![Ooner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c67d28/32.png) [@Ooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ooner)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/34 "2005-09-17T01:53:55Z")
Like all genres of music, I think the majority of indie rock is crap, most of what is popular is the most user-friendly boring garbage in the category, and the fans have a silly narrow view of what’s out there but pretend their music is obviously the best. That being said, the worst most uninspiring lifeless popular indie rock radio right now is probably better than anything the “mainstream modern rock” genre has given us in the last 15 years. I think “sucking less than most other stuff” is a decent accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/35 "2005-09-17T02:06:35Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > Wrong. > > Honestly this explosion troubles me. Recently I saw Modest Mouse, and the house was packed with people who just didn’t belong there at all. Drunken frat boys and girls who looked like they just came from the Aeropostale. A girl almost broke her neck because she came crowd surfing over me and before I even recognized what the huge blur speeding over my head was, she hit the ground and almost took out two other girls with her. These kinds of things are not the norm at typical indie shows. Pretty disruptive when I’m there to ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. But then again, what the fuck would any of them know, the only song they reacted to was Float On. > > Most of the crowd got rather impatient with the fact that only 8 of the 18 song set list were songs from Good News for People Who Love Bad News. I got a kick out of it though, because as someone who’s actually a fan of their’s I knew most of the songs, and the ones I didn’t know I was still able to appreciate. Boy oh boy, I know this isn’t the Pit, and I know I’ve described myself as a “music snob” in the past, but you come across as such a music snob… in the most negative way possible. If you like those bands, I’d think you would be happy for them for reaching a wider audience, or happy that different crowds actually cared enough to come out to the shows. But no, like other little hipster indie elitist music snobs, you think you’re cooler than everyone else, and wish you could keep your bands in obscurity forever, all for yourself. As a fan, and as a musician who has played in bands and tried hard to build a loyal fanbase, I cannot stand that attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/36 "2005-09-17T02:43:43Z")
I think of indie as having started with the Velvet Underground. The most basic lineage is: Velvet Underground to Pre-punk (Stooges, MC5, NY Dolls) to Punk (Ramones, Dictators, Dead Boys, Clash, Sex Pistols, … etc) to Post-punk (Joy Division, Wire, etc) Then the post-punk bands start becoming popular and it becomes New Wave to Alternative to Indie Once it gets to the punk stage is when there’s really so much diversity that more and more things keep branching off. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/37 "2005-09-17T04:05:11Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > Boy oh boy, I know this isn’t the Pit, and I know I’ve described myself as a “music snob” in the past, but you come across as such a music snob… in the most negative way possible. If you like those bands, I’d think you would be happy for them for reaching a wider audience, or happy that different crowds actually cared enough to come out to the shows. But no, like other little hipster indie elitist music snobs, you think you’re cooler than everyone else, and wish you could keep your bands in obscurity forever, all for yourself. As a fan, and as a musician who has played in bands and tried hard to build a loyal fanbase, I cannot stand that attitude. Don’t you know that once enough people start liking “your” band, their music start sucking. Sometimes even the early stuff that was previously thought of as good becomes crap. Can’t let that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/38 "2005-09-17T04:07:28Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > Honestly this explosion troubles me. Recently I saw Modest Mouse, and the house was packed with people who just didn’t belong there at all. Drunken frat boys and girls who looked like they just came from the Aeropostale. A girl almost broke her neck because she came crowd surfing over me and before I even recognized what the huge blur speeding over my head was, she hit the ground and almost took out two other girls with her. These kinds of things are not the norm at typical indie shows. Pretty disruptive when I’m there to ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. Congrats- this is what happens when “your” music gets popular. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/39 "2005-09-17T04:19:18Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > I just read [this article](http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTEwdnZjMjFhBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAMwBHRtcGwDaW5kZXgtY3Nz/s/254472) from AP, and according to it, bands like Modest Mouse, Death Cab for Cutie and Bright eyes (doesn’t mention Iron and Wine but I’d throw that into the ‘big 4’ also) are becoming more and more popular. > > I think this is good, since I’m a big fan of these bands. IMO, anything that results in Modest Mouse getting more play is bad. Back when I was listening to Sirius online with a program that had a blacklist feature, they were the only band I had on there - I’d rather put up with that program’s bugs and watch it change stations randomly like it’s possessed than listen to dreamy, repetitive crap like “Float On”. Death Cab also leaves me unimpressed (and I’ve seen them live… Pedro the Lion was on before them, and so much better), but I have to give them some respect because of the Postal Service connection. Good calls on Grandaddy, The Decemberists, and TMBG though. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934/40 "2005-09-17T05:25:29Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > IMO, anything that results in Modest Mouse getting more play is bad. Back when I was listening to Sirius online with a program that had a blacklist feature, they were the only band I had on there - I’d rather put up with that program’s bugs and watch it change stations randomly like it’s possessed than listen to dreamy, repetitive crap like “Float On”. I can’t understand the popularity of Modest Mouse whatsoever. They’re beyond just dull and repetitive - it’s actively unpleasant to hear them. I hated them before they were big. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indie-rock-the-new-white-kids-music/321934.md?page=3)