# Indonesia buries mass-murderer Suharto with full military honors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333 "2008-01-28T17:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/1 "2008-01-28T17:51:06Z")
Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/28/former_indonesian_dictator_us_ally_mass) Og and Allah, why does anyone want to **honor** [this monster?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto) **Pinochet’s** funeral was less embarrassing! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/2 "2008-01-28T18:12:33Z")
He was brutal with his political opponents and horribly corrupt, launched a pretty brutal war in East Timor and persecuted the Chinese, but his economic policies did save Indonesia, which, due to the policies of the Sukarno government, had horrible debt, unemployment, and inflation, and was on the brink of famine. His policies led to rapid modernization and economic growth, cut unemployment and inflation, made Indonesia food sufficient, dramatically improved public health, and reduced the national debt to manageable levels. If an Indonesian wasn’t political, Chinese, or from East Timor, his standard of living probably improved under Suharto. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/3 "2008-01-28T18:17:50Z")
East Timor was brutal and unnecessary, and still has unfortunate after effects; but it was understandable in terms of trying to keep a large, scattered and disparate country together. (It also made life difficult for Australia, because any sympathy they had for the East Timorese alienated Indonesia, and Australian-Indonesian friendship is pretty important in that region). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/4 "2008-01-28T18:18:18Z")
Who here gives a rip about what the Indonesian military considers honorable? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/5 "2008-01-28T18:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] He was brutal with his political opponents and horribly corrupt, launched a pretty brutal war in East Timor and persecuted the Chinese, but his economic policies did save Indonesia, which, due to the policies of the Sukarno government, had horrible debt, unemployment, and inflation, and was on the brink of famine. His policies led to rapid modernization and economic growth, cut unemployment and inflation, made Indonesia food sufficient, dramatically improved public health, and reduced the national debt to manageable levels. If an Indonesian wasn’t political, Chinese, or from East Timor, his standard of living probably improved under Suharto. [/QUOTE] Not to Godwinize, but . . . ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/6 "2008-01-28T20:09:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Not to Godwinize, but . . . [/QUOTE] Good, because not every dictator is Hitler, and Suharto certainly wasn’t. And if you were trying to make the comparison, which I’m sure you never would, you’d notice that the standard in living in Indonesia from 1967-1998 got a lot better, while the living standards in Germany were a lot worse in 1945 than they were in 1934. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/7 "2008-01-28T20:26:00Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Good, because not every dictator is Hitler, and Suharto certainly wasn’t. And if you were trying to make the comparison, which I’m sure you never would, you’d notice that the standard in living in Indonesia from 1967-1998 got a lot better, while the living standards in Germany were a lot worse in 1945 than they were in 1934. [/QUOTE] I know, but Hitler seemed to be doing a great job on the economy until he started that damfool war – even while his men were rounding up all his opponents and everybody who didn’t seem to fit into the Germany he wanted to build. No, Suharto was not a dangerous imperialist megalomaniac like Hitler – but Suharto **was** a bloody mass murderer, not just an ordinary strongman. No one’s sure how many were killed in his “Transition to the New Order,” but the figure was at least 500,000 and perhaps as high as three million. And that was only the beginning of his rule. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/8 "2008-01-28T20:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, Suharto was not a dangerous imperialist megalomaniac like Hitler – but Suharto **was** a bloody mass murderer, not just an ordinary strongman. No one’s sure how many were killed in his “Transition to the New Order,” but the figure was at least 500,000 and perhaps as high as three million. And that was only the beginning of his rule. [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard the 3 million number. Most estimates I’ve seen give a low of 250,000 and a high of a million. And most of those who were killed were killed at the beginning of his rule. Besides, most of the dead were Communists, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/9 "2008-01-28T20:44:28Z")
Most of the young Indonesians I’ve talked to (35 & younger) refer to him as “Grandfather”. Typical response is “he was a great man but his children were very corrupt”. Apparently whatever good he did for Indoensia as a whole outweighs whatever bad he did in their POV. I’m not trying to minimize the horrorw that were commited in East Timor in the 90’s. From what I heard on BBC and NPR it approached genocide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/10 "2008-01-28T22:28:47Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] I’ve never heard the 3 million number. [/quote] Got it from [Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_to_the_New_Order#Massacres) [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Besides, most of the dead were Communists, anyway. [/QUOTE] Not that I don’t appreciate black humor, **Captain,** but, really . . . ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/11 "2008-01-28T22:39:07Z")
Oh, c’mon, Nixon should have been put into a Hefty Bag and dumped into a landfill, and he got all the bells and whistles too at the end. It’s just something that countries do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/12 "2008-01-28T22:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Oh, c’mon, Nixon should have been put into a Hefty Bag and dumped into a landfill, and he got all the bells and whistles too at the end. It’s just something that countries do. [/QUOTE] [But he didn’t get a **state** funeral.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_nixon#Death_and_funeral) (Reagan did, so did Ford, and I’m sure Carter and Bush Sr. will. Og forbid Bush Jr. ever does.) ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/13 "2008-01-28T22:56:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Not to Godwinize, but . . [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Good, because not every dictator is Hitler, and Suharto certainly wasn’t. [/QUOTE] Then how about Mussolini (he did make the trains run on time)? Maybe Franco? In any case, during the Cold War the U.S. kissed the asses of a lot of corrupt blood-soaked despots because we were afraid of the the Ruskies. Suharto was just one of them. Our support of people like him (and Marcos, Somoza, Pinochet, the Shah, Mobutu, etc.) is one of the more sorry episodes in American diplomatic history. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/14 "2008-01-28T23:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [But he didn’t get a **state** funeral.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_nixon#Death_and_funeral) (Reagan did, so did Ford, and I’m sure Carter and Bush Sr. will. Og forbid Bush Jr. ever does.) [/QUOTE] [Apparently he could have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral), had the family so requested. > [@](#): > > In the United States, state funerals are granted by law to Presidents-elect, sitting and former, and may be granted to other individuals as designated by the sitting president. While tradition and protocol greatly influence the funeral planning, the exact sequence of events is largely determined by the family of the deceased. This decision is made once a president leaves office. And given the current and all surviving former presidents were there, and the whole thing was done with massive pomp and circumstance, it might as well have been. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/15 "2008-01-28T23:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] [Apparently he could have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral), had the family so requested. [/QUOTE] But they didn’t – because they knew requesting one would have been in very, very bad taste, and possibly even an occasion for legislation to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Mustakrakish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Mustakrakish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mustakrakish)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/16 "2008-01-29T00:11:56Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [But he didn’t get a **state** funeral.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_nixon#Death_and_funeral) (Reagan did, so did Ford, and I’m sure Carter and Bush Sr. will. Og forbid Bush Jr. ever does.) [/QUOTE] Nixon was a good president, he actually acomplished a lot of good things during his reign. The whole Watergate thing was a big mistake, but I don’t think that outweighs all the good he did. I’m sure history will judge him favorably in comparison to our current president. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/17 "2008-01-29T00:13:38Z")
[The George Washington University’s National Security Archive electronic briefing book, Suharto: A Declassified Documentary Obit](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB242/index.htm). Lots of depressing reading for those with the stomach for it. CMC +fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/18 "2008-01-29T00:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] Then how about Mussolini (he did make the trains run on time)? [/QUOTE] That’s a [myth](http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp), a surviving bit of old propaganda. People do have the tendency to believe that evil is more efficient; it makes such propaganda much more effective. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/19 "2008-01-29T00:48:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But they didn’t – because they knew requesting one would have been in very, very bad taste, and possibly even an occasion for legislation to stop it. [/QUOTE] Yes, I imagine they would be concerned about protesters. And I’m sure there would have been many of them outside the capitol building. DC is a solidly liberal Democratic city. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/20 "2008-01-29T00:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mustakrakish] Nixon was a good president, he actually acomplished a lot of good things during his reign. The whole Watergate thing was a big mistake, but I don’t think that outweighs all the good he did. I’m sure history will judge him favorably in comparison to our current president. [/QUOTE] Nixon was an awful president. He would have made a decent Secretary of State. But I agree that he looks like Lincoln compared to Shrub. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333.md?page=2)