# Indonesia buries mass-murderer Suharto with full military honors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333 "2008-01-28T17:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/21 "2008-01-29T01:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mustakrakish] Nixon was a good president, he actually acomplished a lot of good things during his reign. The whole Watergate thing was a big mistake, but I don’t think that outweighs all the good he did. I’m sure history will judge him favorably in comparison to our current president. [/QUOTE] Nixon did accomplish some good things, but they were outweighed by his tragic flaws – particularly his paranoid persecution mania, which drove him to counter-persecute his “enemies,” to demonize the counterculture, and to **cheat** in the 1972 election which he could have won by a landslide honestly. He also cynically exploited racism (he was the worst kind of racist himself, but his political calculations were cynical regardless); bombed Cambodia; and lied to the people in 1968 when he promised peace in Vietnam, when in fact he had no intention of ending the war on any terms that could not be considered an American victory. But let’s get this back to Suharto. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/22 "2008-01-29T03:40:37Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] Then how about Mussolini (he did make the trains run on time)? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s a [myth](http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp), a surviving bit of old propaganda. People do have the tendency to believe that evil is more efficient; it makes such propaganda much more effective. [/QUOTE] I was being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/23 "2008-01-29T03:57:17Z")
Getting back to Suharto, and along with my apologies for my Nixon comments leading the thread astray… So long as a head of state hasn’t fled the country during a revolution, or had his corpse burned by his enemies at the end of a war, he will be given a glorious funeral. It’s just SOP, it’s like a death benefit for the family and associated toadies. Later, after the cameras go away, the knives will come out and scores will be settled. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/24 "2008-01-29T05:09:41Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Later, after the cameras go away, the knives will come out and scores will be settled. [/QUOTE] Don’t suppose there’s any way to avoid that? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/25 "2008-01-29T05:56:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Nixon did accomplish some good things, but they were outweighed by his tragic flaws – particularly his paranoid persecution mania, which drove him to counter-persecute his “enemies,” to demonize the counterculture, and to **cheat** in the 1972 election which he could have won by a landslide honestly. He also cynically exploited racism (he was the worst kind of racist himself, but his political calculations were cynical regardless); bombed Cambodia; and lied to the people in 1968 when he promised peace in Vietnam, when in fact he had no intention of ending the war on any terms that could not be considered an American victory. But let’s get this back to Suharto. [/QUOTE] I am no fan of Nixon, but some of what you have said is highly debatable, especially whether or not the last two items were even bad or good. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/26 "2008-01-29T12:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Don’t suppose there’s any way to avoid that? ☹ [/QUOTE] If they could avoid this, odds are they could have avoided a rotten tinpot dictator inthe first place. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/27 "2008-01-29T13:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] In any case, during the Cold War the U.S. kissed the asses of a lot of corrupt blood-soaked despots because we were afraid of the the Ruskies. Suharto was just one of them. Our support of people like him (and Marcos, Somoza, Pinochet, the Shah, Mobutu, etc.) is one of the more sorry episodes in American diplomatic history. [/QUOTE] I would have said “a whole bunch of” the more sorry episodes, not just “one of.” Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/28 "2008-01-29T13:34:13Z")
[This guy](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-ream23jan23,1,7372514.story?ctrack=1&cset=true) was a convicted serial rapist, and he got buried with full military honors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/29 "2008-01-30T01:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Muad’Dib] I am no fan of Nixon, but some of what you have said is highly debatable, especially whether or not the last two items were even bad or good. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Many things about Nixon’s record are debatable. Whether he should have pulled out of Vietnam in his first term as promised is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/30 "2008-01-30T01:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/28/former_indonesian_dictator_us_ally_mass) Og and Allah, why does anyone want to **honor** [this monster?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto) **Pinochet’s** funeral was less embarrassing! [/QUOTE] Well, they buried Lyndon B. Johnson with full honors. A lot of statemen are murderers, and unless they get hanged, they get sent off with a nice funeral. As has been pointed out, who gives a rip? He’ll burn just as hot in hell. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/31 "2008-01-30T01:23:35Z")
[QUOTE=NDP] I was being sarcastic. [/QUOTE] Just curious, what was your sarcastic comment meant to convey? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/32 "2008-01-30T01:39:23Z")
It was probably intended to convey sarcasm… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/33 "2008-01-30T01:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] It was probably intended to convey sarcasm… [/QUOTE] My, what a useful answer! See that? My sarcasm conveyed the meaning that your answer was, in fact, useless. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/34 "2008-01-30T02:53:58Z")
You _could_ have just said “I don’t get it,” if in fact you didn’t get it. Or possibly, “That doesn’t make any sense, even for sarcasm,” if you did get it, but didn’t find it particularly amusing. The meaning I took from it was a black-humor imitation of lowering the comparison bar of easily-vilified mid-20th century European leaders from Hitler, to Mussolini, to Franco, in response to **Captain Amazing** ’s objection to the use of Hitler (which **BrainGlutton** had apparently declined to do, as it happens). They can’t all be gems, you know… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/35 "2008-01-30T03:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] You _could_ have just said “I don’t get it,” if in fact you didn’t get it. Or possibly, “That doesn’t make any sense, even for sarcasm,” if you did get it, but didn’t find it particularly amusing. [/QUOTE] FFS, that IS what I said. Why don’t you just let NDP answer the fucking question? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/36 "2008-01-30T05:23:23Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] FFS, that IS what I said. Why don’t you just let NDP answer the fucking question? [/QUOTE] My explanation was based on Der Trihs’ response to my earlier comment. He seemed to be suggesting I was praising Mussolini for supposedly keeping the Italian trains running on time (and thus endorsing the efficiency of totalitarian states) when I was doing nothing of the sort. I was instead using the cliché about Mussolini to sarcastically respond to the assertions made in Captain Amazing’s posts about some of the allegedly “good” things that happened under Suharto’s brutal leadership. In retrospect, it probably wasn’t worth it for such a lame wise ass remark. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/37 "2008-01-30T05:59:50Z")
Sorry, I’m terribly stupid tonight. “FFS”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/38 "2008-01-30T06:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Well, they buried Lyndon B. Johnson with full honors. [/QUOTE] Did they? Actually, I seem to remember seeing that on television at a very young age. Where is his grave, that I might properly and honorably and patriotically desecrate it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/39 "2008-01-30T07:44:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Did they? Actually, I seem to remember seeing that on television at a very young age. Where is his grave, that I might properly and honorably and patriotically desecrate it? [/QUOTE] Here you go: > **[LBJ Ranch - Johnson Family Cemetery in Stonewall, Texas - Find a Grave Cemetery](https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/641460)** > > The cemetery is approximately 2 miles west of the Blanco County line. Sure hope you don’t get beaten to a pulp when they catch you desecrating his grave. kaylasdad99: “For Fuck’s Sake.” NDP: OK. It’s just that, like der trihs pointed out, that is a pretty widely held myth so I was confused about you using it in a sarcastic comment. When a bunch of people are likely to take it at face value, that’s usually a bad time to effectively use sarcasm. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333/40 "2008-01-30T18:22:01Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Did they? Actually, I seem to remember seeing that on television at a very young age. Where is his grave, that I might properly and honorably and patriotically desecrate it? [/QUOTE] Y’know, Lincoln had something to say about the occupant being the only one who can truly consecrate a grave. Perhaps the converse might also hold true. “But in a larger sense, we cannot opprobriate, we cannot desecrate, we cannot de-sanctify this ground. The bag of bones lying beneath has already desecrated it far beyond our poor power to add or detract.” Try placing that in an envelope and leaving it on the headstone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesia-buries-mass-murderer-suharto-with-full-military-honors/435333.md?page=3)