# Indonesian, Malaysian, US Commercial Pilots **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 28, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346 "2014-12-28T10:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/1 "2014-12-28T10:28:33Z")
All of the pilots I’ve been able to talk with seem to have a common goal; get the cargo to the destination. Is there that a great of a difference of training between Malaysian, Indonesian and Amercian pilots internationally? Could US flight disappear as completely as a Malaysian/Indonesian flight over international waters? What roles would technology play between the differences in the flight absences in each of the countries? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/2 "2014-12-28T11:04:21Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > All of the pilots I’ve been able to talk with seem to have a common goal; get the cargo to the destination. > > Is there that a great of a difference of training between Malaysian, Indonesian and Amercian pilots internationally? > > Could US flight disappear as completely as a Malaysian/Indonesian flight over international waters? > > What roles would technology play between the differences in the flight absences in each of the countries? The real goal is to get ourselves to the destination, the cargo arriving safely is a logical consequence of that. I don’t know what differences in training exist between the countries you’ve mentioned as I’ve not experienced training in any of them. A few things to note though. 1. Asian pilots do not have a monopoly on ballsing things up. There are plenty of examples of American pilots turning a perfectly good aeroplane into a smoking hole in the ground. 2. Asian airlines have a significant number of western pilots anyway. 3. There is a stereotype of some Asian culture’s rigid adherence to a social hierarchy getting in the way of safe cockpit relations. There are plenty of examples of a subordinate crew member saying nothing as their captain flies them into the ground, but again, there is no monopoly on this and there are western accidents where that type of steep cockpit gradient has played a role. 4. Yes a US flight could disappear completely once outside of radar coverage. Radar is effectively line of sight so once you get more than a couple of hundred miles from a radar station you are invisible. Any pilot experiences this once they get away from civilisation. Flight following is via a system of position reports from the aircraft to ATC at defined positions or times via HF radio which has a much longer range than radar and VHF radio. There is also datalink reporting and satellite phones but the basic premise remains the same. 5. Technology isn’t the issue, geography is the issue. 6. The latest aircraft hasn’t disappeared, it just hasn’t been found yet. This is a normal time frame for an aircraft to be missing prior to being located, there’s no indication that it is like MH370. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/3 "2014-12-28T11:27:13Z")
I’d reckon **Richard Pearse** is pretty much on the money. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/4 "2014-12-28T17:02:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > 1. Technology isn’t the issue, geography is the issue. To expand on this a bit, Indonesia and Malaysia are largely made up of islands. It’s a lot harder to keep track of things in places like that; you see lots of (generally smaller) planes ''disappear" in the Caribbean for similar reasons. The US and most industrialized countries also have advanced air defense networks which can be used to track “lost” aircraft in a pinch. Malaysia and its neighbors don’t spend the same sort of money on military procurement. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/5 "2014-12-28T17:46:57Z")
Thank you, ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/6 "2014-12-28T18:59:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > The real goal is to get ourselves to the destination, the cargo arriving safely is a logical consequence of that. > > I don’t know what differences in training exist between the countries you’ve mentioned as I’ve not experienced training in any of them. A few things to note though. American pilots tend to log more hours in the private sector and work their way up through the food chain. This versus taking someone with no experience and training them straight into the cockpit. > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > 1. There is a stereotype of some Asian culture’s rigid adherence to a social hierarchy getting in the way of safe cockpit relations. There are plenty of examples of a subordinate crew member saying nothing as their captain flies them into the ground, but again, there is no monopoly on this and there are western accidents where that type of steep cockpit gradient has played a role. That is exactly what happened in SFO with Asiana and that flight had a check ride pilot on board. This wasn’t a function of poor decision making as it would have been clear to even non-pilots that they FUBAR’D the approach. There is no exaggeration in that last sentence. Cockpit hierarchy was a universal problem within the piloting community in general until the Tenerife disaster and has been addressed within the aviation community but the cultural atmosphere still exists in the Pacific rim. And it’s not just pilots. I’ve dealt with Chinese freight companies and they are inflexible in their procedures to the point they will damage a plane rather than use common sense. > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > 1. Technology isn’t the issue, geography is the issue. Technology is the issue if they don’t use satellite links to monitor the plane. They will know exactly where it is if they use such a system. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/7 "2014-12-29T00:15:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > American pilots tend to log more hours in the private sector and work their way up through the food chain. This versus taking someone with no experience and training them straight into the cockpit. True, and Australia is like that as well. However the minimum hour approach has been used in Europe for years and they don’t have big problems with it. There are western airlines with excellent safety records who have used cadet pilots for a long time, e.g., Qantas. > [@](#): > > Cockpit hierarchy was a universal problem within the piloting community in general until the Tenerife disaster and has been addressed within the aviation community but the cultural atmosphere still exists in the Pacific rim. And it’s not just pilots. I’ve dealt with Chinese freight companies and they are inflexible in their procedures to the point they will damage a plane rather than use common sense. It is still a universal problem, it’s just that some parts of the industry have done more to correct it than others. I was reading about a Canadian B737 that crashed at Resolute Bay recently, the FO let the captain fly them into a hill, even though he knew it was all wrong. He tried to convince the captain that they were off the localiser but he never actively took control of the aircraft. When other pilots in the company were interviewed after the accident the general consensus was that it wasn’t the FO’s place to order a go-around or take control. > [@](#): > > Technology is the issue if they don’t use satellite links to monitor the plane. They will know exactly where it is if they use such a system. At what cost? Anyway the OP was asking about differences in technology between the US and Indonesia. There is no significant difference in technology between the two areas but there is a difference in geography that makes it impossible to have constant radar coverage. That said, this latest accident occurred within secondary radar coverage and the location of the aircraft was known, so it’s really no different from an aircraft going missing offshore in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/8 "2014-12-29T00:21:52Z")
The Indonesians took a long time to initiate the first SAR phase, it wasn’t until about 50 minutes after it went missing that they officially started looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/9 "2014-12-29T02:18:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > At what cost? Anyway the OP was asking about differences in technology between the US and Indonesia. There is no significant difference in technology between the two areas but there is a difference in geography that makes it impossible to have constant radar coverage. That said, this latest accident occurred within secondary radar coverage and the location of the aircraft was known, so it’s really no different from an aircraft going missing offshore in the US. I was talking about the satellite link that most major carriers use. It provides location data as the plane flies. Malaysian Airlines didn’t use it. As for the price, [it’s now offered free](http://www.businessinsider.com/r-aireon-to-offer-satellite-tracking-free-to-help-search-for-missing-planes-2014-9). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/10 "2014-12-29T04:07:57Z")
I’m not sure if that’s relevant to the latest accident though? They were in radar coverage when it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/11 "2014-12-29T11:36:30Z")
Walking through the Melbourne airport a couple of months ago, and the guys in front of me paused. They were single stripe pilots, and had paused to stay a step behind the double-stripe pilots. Got passed them and realised that the two double-stripe pilots had paused to stay a step behind the triple-stripe pilot, who had stopped to look at an item in a shop display. All asian, didn’t recognise the airline. Anyway, historically the problem was compounded in Malaysia, where pilot selection, like everything else, was influenced by personal contact, connections, and cash contributions. Dunno if it’s changed in the last 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/12 "2014-12-29T22:52:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I’m not sure if that’s relevant to the latest accident though? They were in radar coverage when it happened. Not that the news agencies get anything right but they said they lost radar contact soon after the last transmission. They haven’t found the plane yet. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/13 "2014-12-29T22:54:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I was talking about the satellite link that most major carriers use. It provides location data as the plane flies. Malaysian Airlines didn’t use it. As for the price, [it’s now offered free](http://www.businessinsider.com/r-aireon-to-offer-satellite-tracking-free-to-help-search-for-missing-planes-2014-9). That is not the satellite uplink that most carriers use and Malaysian doesn’t. That is ADS-B that the vast majority of airliners use including Malaysian. ADS-B is currently available via land based receivers and is used in some parts of the world to supplement and/or replace traditional radar as well as being the source of flight data for websites such as flightaware. What your link is referring to is a company that will make ADS-B reception via satellite available free of charge once its system is operational which isn’t until 2017. ADS-B is typically integrated into the transponder unit and when the transponder unit is turned off or fails ADS-B will also be turned off or fail so no advantage for MH370 or QZ8501 over what they already had. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/14 "2014-12-29T22:56:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not that the news agencies get anything right but they said they lost radar contact soon after the last transmission. > > They haven’t found the plane yet. That’s not unusual for a sea search in crap weather. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/15 "2014-12-29T23:10:22Z")
IIRC, that plane (Airbus) had 13,000 cycles. I realize the nature of flight in that part of the world is short-hop, but isn’t 13K cycles (1 takeoff and landing = 1 cycle) kinda high? If the fiberglass vertical stab’s used on those birds still float, I’m gonna guess it will be the first thing found. Do those glass cockpits still have traditional gyros and pitot-static systems, or is it really possible for all instrumentation to fail (AirFrance 447) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/16 "2014-12-29T23:31:08Z")
I don’t think it is high in absolute terms but it has been a busy aeroplane. It’s done 13600 flights since it came into service in October 2008 which is around 6 legs a day on average. AF447 didn’t lose all its instrumentation, it had some intermittent failings of the airspeed indicators which was due to the pitot systems freezing. Everything else was working ok. It’s a similar system on the A320 so it could be a similar accident. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/17 "2014-12-30T00:14:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > That is not the satellite uplink that most carriers use and Malaysian doesn’t. That is ADS-B that the vast majority of airliners use including Malaysian. ADS-B is currently available via land based receivers and is used in some parts of the world to supplement and/or replace traditional radar as well as being the source of flight data for websites such as flightaware. What your link is referring to is a company that will make ADS-B reception via satellite available free of charge once its system is operational which isn’t until 2017. > > ADS-B is typically integrated into the transponder unit and when the transponder unit is turned off or fails ADS-B will also be turned off or fail so no advantage for MH370 or QZ8501 over what they already had. wrong link. I was talking about satellite based information that [Immarsat](http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-on-earth/malaysia-flight-370/inmarsat-arming-tragedy/)offered free. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/18 "2014-12-30T00:19:12Z")
I see. At 15 minute intervals it wouldn’t be of any use in the current situation, but it would be nice to have. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/19 "2014-12-30T01:14:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I see. At 15 minute intervals it wouldn’t be of any use in the current situation, but it would be nice to have. there’s nothing stopping a ping in shorter intervals. consider a plane of 150 people divided into the extra cost of $11 for this service. That’s 7 cents a passenger. And this is what was used to find the Air France plane. How much money has gone into looking for the Malaysian Airlines plane? Billions? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346/20 "2014-12-30T01:48:57Z")
It costs less than $10K to equip a private plane so that it can navigate accurately within 3 feet of intended flight while interfacing with weather data and surrounding aircraft. It’s common technology at this point. So the question is pretty simple. Why is a $250 million dollar commercial plane carrying 100+ passengers flying without a satellite data link? It’s established technology. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indonesian-malaysian-us-commercial-pilots/708346.md?page=2)