# Inducing Labor when it will likely kill the fetus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528 "2007-02-16T19:07:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/1 "2007-02-16T19:07:13Z")
Sometimes pregnant women have conditions like that which used to be called Toxemia which endanger their life and do do not respond to any treatment short of ending their pregnancy. In these cases labor may well be induced even though there is little or no chance the fetus will survive. I am specifically talking about when every effort is made to normally deliver and support the most likely doomed fetus. My understanding is that organ failure will occur in untreated Toxemia, so that even if the pregnant woman wanted to choose to carry longer, such a choice would lead to both their deaths and so would be in vain. I am wondering how the pro-life people view these situations and what choice they advocate and what choice they think God supports. ---
**Author:** ![SailBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@SailBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SailBunny)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/2 "2007-02-16T19:15:38Z")
Toxemia is the old school word for Preeclampsia, btw, so people can look up what it means. I cant contribute much to this debate as I believe in using any measures possible to save the mothers life. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/3 "2007-02-16T19:43:59Z")
As a practical matter, I of course have no issue with such a procedure, given the circumstances outlined. My problem is that the justification of the life of the mother is often used as a justification for abortion in general, and not just abortions in such dire circumstances. This is because some abortion advocates insist on treating the normal risks of childbirth as a sufficient reason to legitimize such a drastic step. However, it is to me far more a moral issue than a legal one. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/4 "2007-02-16T20:54:10Z")
I’m pretty sure the current term is PIH, or Pregnancy Induced Hypertension . ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/5 "2007-02-16T21:18:44Z")
> [@lee](#): > > I am wondering [snip] what choice they think God supports. From a Baha’i perspective: our Holy Book clearly states that when religious doctrine and _legitimate_ medical advice are at odds, we should go with the medical advice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/6 "2007-02-16T21:24:01Z")
From the point of view of this pro-life person, the situation described in the OP is absolutely morally licit. The principle in play here is [Principle of double effect"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect). The action taken is intended to save the life of the mother, who would die otherwise. There is no direct intention to harm the unborn child; that harm is an unintended consequence of a moral aim and a moral act. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/7 "2007-02-16T22:53:13Z")
I’m sure the situation may not always be crystal clear. We need to allow for the fact that we’re human beings, sometimes forced by circumstances to make urgent, life-altering decisions. Saving the mother’s life is absolutely an essential factor in such a circumstance, though this shouldn’t be used lightly, to justify an abortion where such a justification is remote (answering as a pro-lifer, since you asked). ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/8 "2007-02-16T22:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] I’m sure the situation may not always be crystal clear. We need to allow for the fact that we’re human beings, sometimes forced by circumstances to make urgent, life-altering decisions. Saving the mother’s life is absolutely an essential factor in such a circumstance, though this shouldn’t be used lightly, to justify an abortion where such a justification is remote (answering as a pro-lifer, since you asked). [/QUOTE] How would you prefer that we make sure this option isn’t “used lightly”? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/9 "2007-02-16T22:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=lee] How would you prefer that we make sure this option isn’t “used lightly”? [/QUOTE] I want everyone in the world to call me and ask. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/10 "2007-02-16T23:08:28Z")
While I didn’t have PIH, I did face this very scenario while at 23 weeks and 6 days pregnant - well before “viable” in most textbooks and laws - due to an infection in the placenta. The umbilical cord and placenta were also previa, meaning they were closer to the cervix than the fetus, so any attempt to induce labor and deliver vaginally would have made the placenta and cord fall out first, killing the fetus. Maintaining the pregnancy would have meant the infection spreading, killing us both. However, there is another option in many cases, which I suspect anti-abortion people would prefer: having a c-section and attempting to save \*both \*mother and baby. Since many (I want to say most, but I’m not actually certain of that) cases of PIH get life threatening in the third trimester (after 26 weeks), this is a valid option in many hospitals with NICU’s rated to treat premature babies. We opted for the c-section, even though I’m firmly pro-choice and would personally have supported any woman in her right to have an abortion or ill-fated vaginal delivery at that point and for several weeks to come. But trying to save both is the only morally defensible position, I think, for a pro-life person to take. Things would change, of course, if the mother’s health were more at risk from the c-section than a normal woman’s would be, or if it was clearly too early (Before 22 weeks) to save the fetus with current technology. (The baby made it, by the way. She turned two last Friday. Tomorrow is her birthday party.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/11 "2007-02-17T01:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] As a practical matter, I of course have no issue with such a procedure, given the circumstances outlined. My problem is that the justification of the life of the mother is often used as a justification for abortion in general, and not just abortions in such dire circumstances. This is because some abortion advocates insist on treating the normal risks of childbirth as a sufficient reason to legitimize such a drastic step. However, it is to me far more a moral issue than a legal one. [/QUOTE] Last time I checked, preeclampsia is not just one of the “normal risks of childbirth”, if that’s what you’re implying. If not, I appologize. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/12 "2007-02-17T04:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Last time I checked, preeclampsia is not just one of the “normal risks of childbirth”, if that’s what you’re implying. If not, I appologize. [/QUOTE] Actually, it is. Pre-eclampsia occurs in 6% of pregnancies. It doesn’t advance to eclampsia, toxemia, or H.E.L.L.P. in every case, though. It is serious enough and commone enough that they do try to educated every pregnant woman regarding the risks and warning signs. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/13 "2007-02-17T13:50:12Z")
[QUOTE=lee] Actually, it is. Pre-eclampsia occurs in 6% of pregnancies. It doesn’t advance to eclampsia, toxemia, or H.E.L.L.P. in every case, though. It is serious enough and commone enough that they do try to educated every pregnant woman regarding the risks and warning signs. [/QUOTE] How have “they [tried to] educate every pregnant woman” about it? If your blood pressure stays low, it’s never mentioned. (My pregnancies are my cites.) There are no nationwide preeclampsia awareness campaigns aimed at women of childbearing years who aren’t pregnant, like there are for folic acid and Back to Sleep. I only know about it myself because I like to read stuff like “What to Expect…”, which most women these days find too scary because it details all the possible things that can go wrong, however unlikely. In 1979 - 1986, 0.56 per 1000 births were complicated by eclampsia. [cite](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2386132&dopt=Abstract) I think it’s fairly characterized as an unexpected risk of pregnancy, statistically speaking. At least, “unexpected” enough that I wouldn’t put it on par with, say, morning sickness or hip pain. It’s certainly not in the category of things I’d say she should have known about going in and should therefore suck it up and suffer the consequences. I think that’s what **Mr. Moto** meant by “normal risks” of pregnancy used to immorally justify abortion. I’m imagining a woman getting an abortion because she’s afraid of getting fat or wants to take cold medicine, or decides not to have a medically recommended c-section at 8+ months because of the risks of an epidural. Frankly, pro-choice as I am politically and religiously, those reasons for ending a pregnancy make me go “blech”, as well. If not immoral, I find them…distasteful. I’ll still support your right to make those medical decisions as you wish, but I’ll secretly think you’re a selfish git. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/14 "2007-02-18T00:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] How have “they [tried to] educate every pregnant woman” about it? If your blood pressure stays low, it’s never mentioned. (My pregnancies are my cites.) There are no nationwide preeclampsia awareness campaigns aimed at women of childbearing years who aren’t pregnant, like there are for folic acid and Back to Sleep. I only know about it myself because I like to read stuff like “What to Expect…”, which most women these days find too scary because it details all the possible things that can go wrong, however unlikely. [/QUOTE] I’ve attended birthing classes twice and in both cases they’ve mentioned preeclampsia (and eclampsia). And of the three ob/gyns I’ve met in a professional capacity, all three have explained the reason for the blood pressure check at each appointment is to monitor for preeclampsia and explained why it’s important to check for it. Perhaps the women in my life simply choose better ob/gyns. I think, but am not entirely certain, that it was also discussed in my basic health classes in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/16 "2007-02-18T02:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=purl3] God doesn’t meddle at this level. Else there would be no pregnancies, no murders, no mortality at all. The clockmaker has only reset the clock on a couple of occasions, and leaves all the other decisions to mankind. This is true whether you believe in free will or predestination. [/QUOTE] Well, I’m glad somebody finally settled that. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2007, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/17 "2007-02-20T11:02:36Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Last time I checked, preeclampsia is not just one of the “normal risks of childbirth”, if that’s what you’re implying. If not, I appologize. [/QUOTE] You kinda missed the point there. The guy was saying that risks associated with childbirth, _other_ than the one cited, were advanced by abortion advocates as justifying the procedure. In other words, saying that if abortion was justified when it was 99% certain that the mother would otherwise die, it’s justified when there’s a 0.001% chance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2007, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inducing-labor-when-it-will-likely-kill-the-fetus/392528/18 "2007-02-20T12:55:35Z")
My aunt discovered she had breast cancer while pregnant. If she hadn’t been pregnant, she wouldn’t have found out about the cancer until after the delivery… perhaps until the autopsy table. The doctor wanted to abort right there so she could start treatment; she chose to prolong the pregnancy _until the kid had a chance_. Not one minute more. As soon as she reached 7 months, delivery was induced. We had the extreme luck to live in a town that has one of the best prenatal facilities in the country: the baby was delivered there and then my cousin stayed behind in an incubator (one of the first in the country) while she was shipped to the nearest oncological facility (200km away). She wasn’t able to hold the baby in her arms until he was 11 weeks old. Given the state of prenatal care at the time, the baby was likely to die. But the difference between “likely” and “sure” meant that, to her, waiting was very well worth the risk to her life. Other people’s mileage will most likely vary one way or another.