# Indy drivers whine about Danica Patrick because of her weight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947 "2005-05-29T02:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/241 "2005-06-04T04:36:59Z")
I mean, really, that argument is ludicrous. If MLB decided to institute a rule that all players must bat right handed, I would say that it’s unfair to lefties. Your retort would really be “it’s the same rule for all players, so by definition it’s fair”? Really? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/242 "2005-06-04T04:57:28Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I mean, really, that argument is ludicrous. If MLB decided to institute a rule that all players must bat right handed, I would say that it’s unfair to lefties. Your retort would really be “it’s the same rule for all players, so by definition it’s fair”? Really? I’m not so sure about this rebuttal. Please disregard. I do not believe that all rules are by definition fair solely for the fact that they are applied equally. I tried to craft an obvious refutation of that premise with the southaws in baseball, but I don’t think it would stand up to scrutiny. A better one would be to add 1 second to the driver’s race time for every letter in their birth name. Since it applies to all drivers, is it by definition fair? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/243 "2005-06-04T05:14:49Z")
I think that one of the $$$$$$ men should start immediately building a car for an 75 pound midget and one for a 450 pound driver. Then they should work on placing the heavy driver in all different places within the car for best race results / speed on all parts of the course. They then should do the same with the weight added to the little guys car and fined the best place for the weight. Then they should really campaign for the rule change in mid-year and totally destroy all the rest of the teams on the race course. Hey, what about using robot drivers? No danger, unlimited speed because who cares if they crash, it can be all about speed. There could be drivers but they would be in Sim booths and then the teenaged geeks would become the race drivers of the future and there would not need to be any rules at all. Can’t get any more fair than that and I’m sure the public would think it was even better than what they are spending their money on now. Hmmmmmmmm Patent, copyright, -------- need a lawyer over here in aisle three. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/244 "2005-06-04T05:18:38Z")
Or, you could just weigh the competitors as raced, which is the accepted standard in the racing world. ---
**Author:** ![YWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/6f9a4e/32.png) [@YWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWalker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/245 "2005-06-04T11:18:18Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I’m guessing I haven’t heard rebuttals from the other critics because they realize that they have lost the debate. Nope. Perhaps just a realization that there’s no point in arguing with someone who won’t be swayed. And, quite frankly, it doesn’t seem fair to pile on to someone who is so badly outnumbered in opponents. I’ll agree that being lighter weight provides a slight advantage. I disagree that it needs to be corrected for in one of the few sports where being physically small provides this advantage. If the drivers feel that it is such a handicap, perhaps they should stick with one of the racing leagues that does correct for weight. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/246 "2005-06-04T13:17:24Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Or, you could just weigh the competitors as raced, which is the accepted standard in the racing world. Well, no, Ellis, apparently it isn’t. I can think of a major racing league where they don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/247 "2005-06-04T18:42:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, no, Ellis, apparently it isn’t. I can think of a major racing league where they don’t do that. And yet the majority do, making your single example badly outnumbered. Check the facts. Weighing the vehicles as raced is indeed the autoracing standard. “Generally accepted” doesn’t mean “unanimous”. There is still the occasional holdout who hasn’t adopted a level playing field yet. I’m sure they will institute the same rule that everybody else has, as they are currently looking into it. Dan Wheldon is sure they will correct the problem as well. I’ve never seen so many people on this board be so adamantly wrong before. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/248 "2005-06-04T19:04:14Z")
So explain again why the test should be purely driving technique, and not simply who the best human race driver is? Especially given the examples of numerous other sports which do not attempt to nullify differences in physical characteristics? If a driver came along who had huge arms and could therefore steer better than other drivers (assuming this mattered), would you advocate making his steering tighter to ‘even the playing field’? Just where do you draw the line? See, the problem I’m having here is that you are taking a totally ARBITRARY decision, and demanding that we accept it as the ‘right’ decision. The IRL does not consider driver weight along with the weight of the car. It obviously has its own reasons for doing this. Perhaps the IRL people feel that this would actually be a disadvantage for smaller drivers, because the bigger ones would have more strength and yet get to race at the same weight as the drivers lacking the muscle mass. Perhaps they felt that that was the way to truly judge skill, and that the other leagues are wrong. How do you refute that argument, given the tiny differences we’re talking about? I’m curious - in the current IRL, is there any correlation at all between driver size and win rate? Since there has already been as much as a 60lb weight differential between drivers, should all the small guys be winning? Are they? And what if the IRL’s position is that they don’t want to weigh drivers specifically because they are trying to attract women to the sport? Given that the advantage is so tiny, and that women lack a lot of strength, is that such an unreasonable choice to make? And just because they weigh the car does not mean they should also factor in driver weight. Controlling the parameters of the car makes sense if you’re trying to determine who the best driver is. It’s a totally different decision to decide whether the size of the driver should be part of what makes a driver great. Let me give you another example: Air Racing and Aerobatics. Pilot weight and size is certainly a factor here, perhaps even giving women a tiny advantage. But the pilots all fly against each other, may the best person win. In some aircraft classes, the aiplanes have to be identical. But the pilots can be anyone. And women compete just fine against the men. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/249 "2005-06-04T19:13:17Z")
Sam, you’ve already conceded that not weighing drivers gives lighter drivers an advantage. You stated that you did not care about this competitive imbalance. If all you guys are arguing is that you like the fact that IRL does not have a level playing field when compared to other car racing leagues, just say so. My point is that it is unfair, and unlike all the thought experiments crafted to refute my position, I have actual cites backing mine… I can agree to disagree with you guys regarding whether or not sports _should_ be fair. I think anyone who feels that sports shouldn’t be fair is a raving loon, but that’s no different compared to how I regard creationists. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > So explain again why the test should be purely driving technique, and not simply who the best human race driver is? It should be. It currently is not. The car and driver are not separate; they are the same competitive entity. The cars are not weighed as raced. They would be if IRL wanted a level playing field. They likely will be, as IRL has no PR leg to stand on. Unlike you posters, nobody in the real world accepts the concept of handicapping a sport to give women a better chance against men. Sam, you still have yet to offer a single example of a sport where the women had to work harder to win because they competed against men. You made that claim, and when I challenged it, never said a word since. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/250 "2005-06-04T19:22:31Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Sam, you’ve already conceded that not weighing drivers gives lighter drivers an advantage. You stated that you did not care about this competitive imbalance. > > If all you guys are arguing is that you like the fact that IRL does not have a level playing field when compared to other car racing leagues, just say so. And neither does baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, horse racing, airplane racing, foot racing, tennis, golf… Competitive imbalances are what sports are all about! The race goes to the strongest, the fastest, the fittest… That’s what we’re measuring! If some racing leagues want to attempt to factor out everything except technical skill, that’s their prerogative. **That doesn’t make it the only right way to do things!** Why you can’t see that is just beyond me. There are racing leagues in which every tiny parameter of the car is controlled. There are others in which there is some lattitude given to the teams to modify the cars, thus making the race a combination of driver skill and engineering. Still others focus mostly on engineering. Some have argued that allowing so much downforce in cars has created an unlevel playing field, punishing the aggressive drivers who can no longer take chances in losing ground effect. All of this is ARBITRARY. The rules of a sport are whatever the organizers of the sport want them to be. IRL has chosen its set of rules, and for you to argue that these are the ‘wrong’ rules is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/251 "2005-06-05T02:18:06Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > My point is that it is unfair, and unlike all the thought experiments crafted to refute my position, I have actual cites backing mine. You have provided no cites backing your position. Not a single one. Whether or not weight affects speed is not the issue; we know it does. Whether or not the IRL’s rules are “unfair” is the issue; THAT’s where you differ, and you have no cites to prove it’s “unfair” because it’s solely your opinion. Frankly, it’s stupid to say this particular thing is “unfair.” No racing league in the world enforces absolute standards on every possible aspect of the vehicle. In the case or IRL, driver weight isn’t counted. In the case of F1, there’s a lot of engineering room to play with. Physical differences between athletes are part of sport and to say it’s unfair is just stupid. By your claimed standard of fairness, the only real FAIR way to run racing would be to have all drivers drive identical automobiles supplied by the racing league, and then adjust them from driver weight. Having cars engineered and manufactured by different teams would certainly not be permitted. How anyone could bitch about driver weight and ignore different fucking ENGINES IN THE CARS defies any sort of logical explanation. If you don’t like IRL’s rules, fucking say so. But they’re the rules of the sport, and they confer an advantage to smaller drivers, just like all sports confer advantages to different physical types. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/252 "2005-06-05T02:55:17Z")
Six fucking pages?!?!?! **SIX FUCKING PAGES?!?!?!** Could you just imagine the shit storm if she actually won the race. Sheesh! The race was run under the rules currently set forth, no rules were broken, by anyone. Even by those who do not possess a penis. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/253 "2005-06-06T02:33:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > As I understand it Mikan was 6’10" in an era when the average player was much shorter. His height allowed him to use a technique that was 100% within the current rules, goaltending, that others were unable to use with anything approaching his effectiveness, entirely due to their lack of height. If he had been 6’2", he would never have been in a position to cause a rule change. > > Rules in sport are updated all the time to account for changing conditions. Is Danica Patrick enough of a new condition of the sport to support a change in the rules? Certainly she’s not damaging the sport or dominating the way Mikan did, but you shouldn’t have to wait until a crisis to update your rules. A “crises”? I don’t think Mikan created a “crises”, just a large competitive imbalance. It’s not like he was about to destroy the sport. So, yeah, I think you should wait until you absolutely have to before changing the rules to handicap one of your participants. After giving this some consideration, I think a better case can be made that NASCAR is being unfair by adjusting for the weight of the driver (if the goal of a race it to find the best driver). I guess if the goal of the race is to see who can design the fastest cars, then you need the drivers to be as alike as possible (the best way to do this would be a time trial using the same driver for every car). I suppose all race circuits fall into some grey area between engineering vs. driving skill. Nascar seems to want to make the cars as equal as possible while making the drivers as equal as possible…seems kind of silly. Oh, and ditto what **Sam Stone** said about pure driving technique/best human race driver. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/254 "2005-06-06T04:05:32Z")
Maybe we should make her wear a strap-on while racing. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/255 "2005-06-06T04:12:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Maybe we should make her wear a strap-on while racing. Yeh, made out of lead – that should take care of the weight difference right there. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/256 "2005-06-06T08:29:08Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I’ve never seen so many people on this board be so adamantly wrong before. Please make this your sig. It says so much. That Tiki Barber has an unfair advantage; by being born small and fast, he’s harder to tackle. He needs a handicap to make things fair. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/257 "2005-06-07T01:38:39Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Please make this your sig. It says so much. I forgot this board supported sigs. I turned them off so I don’t have to read the same “clever” quotes 6000 times. They get old fast. I find sigs and smilies to be equally irritating. [/quote] That Tiki Barber has an unfair advantage; by being born small and fast, he’s harder to tackle. He needs a handicap to make things fair. [/QUOTE] Don’t remind me, I’m worried that Jacobs is so big he’ll be easy to knock down trying to convert 3rd and short. I’m cautiously optimistic at best. Even if your counter had merit, which it doesn’t, there was nothing preventing any other team from getting Tiki. There are factors that prevent drivers from getting down to the same weight as whomever happens to be the lightest driver that day. I accept (finally! woohoo!) that I cannot and will not change any opinions in this thread, so I bow out. IRL doesn’t have to weigh the cars. But if they do weigh the cars, they should do so as raced. Otherwise, it’s meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/258 "2005-06-07T04:50:22Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > IRL doesn’t have to weigh the cars. But if they do weigh the cars, they should do so as raced. Otherwise, it’s meaningless. No, you have it backwards. You weigh the cars, to ensure that each driver starts from the same platform so that the test of **Who is the best driver?** is valid. If you add in the weight of the driver, then you are deliberatly punishing smaller drivers by taking away one of their natural advantages. You’re handicapping the field. It’s all in how you look at it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/259 "2008-03-28T23:15:46Z")
[Indycar has finally come to its senses](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2008/03/28/a1b_indy_0328.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=46) by eliminating the unfair advantage enjoyed by lighter drivers, like all other premier auto racing leagues. I guess they got tired of waiting for Patrick to capitalize on her significant advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Pine\_Fresh\_Scent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@Pine\_Fresh\_Scent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pine_Fresh_Scent)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/260 "2008-03-29T03:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=movingfinger] Last week’s NASCAR race at Charlotte was won by Mark Martin, who is short and wiry and probably doesn’t weigh over 130 pounds, if that much. No one complained about his having an unfair advantage, although if someone were to complain, Robbie would be the one. Gentlemen, the sport is expanding and is no longer the reserve of white southern men. Non-Southerners have been doing well in NASCAR, and there may well be room for, uh, girlsImeanwomen, and maybe even for…whisper it…neeeegroes. Wow. Can you imagine a Black female driver ftom Canada? That whirring noise is Bill France rotating rapidly in his grave. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you know this **Movingfinger** , but for others who may not, here’s a link to Willy T Ribbs’ website. [Willy T Ribbs, African American NASCAR and Indy driver](http://www.willytribbs.com/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=14)