# Indy drivers whine about Danica Patrick because of her weight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947 "2005-05-29T02:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/321 "2008-04-06T13:58:53Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I don’t doubt that fairness is often the intent of weighing rules. Then we are in complete agreement. Why you felt the need to argue some esoteric philosophical bullshit is beyond me. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] Why not just say it? “I would rather see a skilled fat man win a race than an untalented midget, because that’s what interests me.” [/QUOTE] Because that isn’t what interests me. What interests me is giving the competitors a level playing field. When it comes to racing, weighing the cars as raced is crucial to this goal. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > I don’t care what ALL MAJOR RACING does. Having different rules for different drivers (in this case) confers an advantage on the male drivers > […] > Maybe if I’d made an “extraordinary” claim, I’d worry about “extraordinary” evidence. All you have is “everyone does it this way!!!” That’s less than convincing. All the experts in the field – _the professionals_ – agree that weighing cars as raced is the fair thing to do. Therefore, _by definition_ if you disagree with that then you are, in fact, making an extraordinary claim. And just so you know, there are no different rules for different drivers. There _used_ to be when they used to let lighter drivers race lighter cars. Now, finally, everyone is racing by the same rules. **Dead Badger** , why aren’t you taking him to task for this? Aren’t you the one arguing that any rule applied equally (all cars must weight the same as raced) are fair by definition? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/322 "2008-04-06T14:05:24Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] I just don’t see this posturing that weight equality is some immutable law of the universe as anything but, well, posturing. Otherwise you’d be able to explain to me why all of those other sports I mentioned where physical attributes confer an advantage are intrinsically unfair, and you quite clearly can’t. [/QUOTE] I have explained this many times in this thread, though in fairness that was three years ago. Physical advantages in sports are fair when the advantage helps a human endeavor. Physical advantages are unfair when they confer _mechanical_ advantage. Since the drivers don’t power the cars, a lighter driver gets an unfair mechanical advantage unless they carry extra ballast to even things out. When it comes to turning the steering wheel, that isn’t a mechanical aspect of the sport; the driver powers that purely through muscle. Therefore, physical advantages are right and proper for steering purposes. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/323 "2008-04-06T14:14:16Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] What do you think of series like British Touring Cars [/QUOTE] Those are races that don’t have all the rules about car specs, right? Series like that are engineering contests, not real sports. Engineering contests are fine and dandy. They’re not fair at all, but they don’t need to be because the contest isn’t between the drivers; it’s between the engineers. A fair race is one where the engineering is equalized. Getting to race a lighter car is to race with an advantage in engineering. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/324 "2008-04-07T02:54:46Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I have explained this many times in this thread, though in fairness that was three years ago. Physical advantages in sports are fair when the advantage helps a human endeavor. Physical advantages are unfair when they confer _mechanical_ advantage. [/QUOTE] This seems rather arbitrary. Why is this unfair? [QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Since the drivers don’t power the cars, a lighter driver gets an unfair mechanical advantage unless they carry extra ballast to even things out. When it comes to turning the steering wheel, that isn’t a mechanical aspect of the sport; [/QUOTE] You’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/325 "2008-04-20T14:34:05Z")
Three cheers for Danica Patrick [getting her first win](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080420/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ra_su/car_irl_indy_japan300). Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! Been watching Deadwood reruns recently. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/326 "2008-04-20T18:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Three cheers for Danica Patrick [getting her first win](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080420/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ra_su/car_irl_indy_japan300). Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! Been watching Deadwood reruns recently. [/QUOTE] The other drivers are gonna get all pissy because she won based on pit stops and remaining fuel. So the spin will be she only won because she’s so light. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/327 "2008-04-20T20:01:47Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] The other drivers are gonna get all pissy because she won based on pit stops and remaining fuel. So the spin will be she only won because she’s so light. [/QUOTE] How do you figure? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/328 "2008-04-20T20:15:47Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] How do you figure? [/QUOTE] Weren’t drivers already pissy about how she had an ‘unfair’ advantage being s small and light? I would think a victory like this would reinforce that. The linked article suggested she won because the other leaders had to pit and she didn’t. Personally, my own reaction would be to try and figure out how her team managed their fuel better, but there’s always gonna be some who cry foul. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/329 "2008-04-20T20:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] How do you figure? [/QUOTE] The argument will be that the thirty pounds or so that she has on her opponents allowed her car to get better mileage and acceleration, which allowed her to require fewer pit stops and to recover more quickly from them, which allowed her to win the race. It’s bullshit (I can’t imagine that thirty pounds or so making more than a fraction of a second’s difference, and other, taller drivers have been working at this disadvantage for decades now without a word in protest) but that’s what the argument will be. How do you think an offer on her part to take thirty pounds of penalty weight, like a chunk of lead under her seat, would quiet down her opponents? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/330 "2008-04-20T20:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Weren’t drivers already pissy about how she had an ‘unfair’ advantage being s small and light? [/QUOTE] Ditch the irony quotes. In the world of professional racing, having a lighter car is absolutely an unfair advantage. That’s why every single league weighs the drivers with the car. And as for the case you and **appleciders** are making, are you guys trying to woosh me? IndyCar, like all other major racing leagues, [normalizes for driver weight](http://www.autoracingdaily.com/article/danica-makes-indycar-series-jockey-with-weight-issue/). > [@appleciders](#): > > The argument will be that the thirty pounds or so that she has on her opponents allowed her car to get better mileage and acceleration, which allowed her to require fewer pit stops and to recover more quickly from them, which allowed her to win the race. It’s bullshit (I can’t imagine that thirty pounds or so making more than a fraction of a second’s difference, and other, taller drivers have been working at this disadvantage for decades now without a word in protest) but that’s what the argument will be. > > How do you think an offer on her part to take thirty pounds of penalty weight, like a chunk of lead under her seat, would quiet down her opponents? A few things bear repeating here. First, “a fraction of a second’s difference” is _huge_ in top level racing. It is the polar opposite of bullshit. In fact, cars with a full tank of gas go noticeably slower than those running on empty, simply because of the weight of the gas. This phenomenon happens to every single driver as the gas gets used up. Even in NASCAR, where the cars weigh twice as much, they go slower on a full tank. Taller and bigger drivers have NOT “been working at this disadvantage for decades now without a word of protest.” They have always protested this unfair advantage the lighter drivers enjoyed. It just didn’t make headlines until Patrick joined the circuit. And finally, as I already mentioned, Danica was already carrying extra weight because she’s lighter. It’s the new rule that made headlines a few weeks back, which is why I bumped this three year old thread in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/331 "2008-04-20T20:55:25Z")
Also, for everyone arguing about the strength deficit, according to the link in my previous post the cars have power steering. And no, **Yookeroo** , I wasn’t kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/332 "2008-04-21T02:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] The other drivers are gonna get all pissy because she won based on pit stops and remaining fuel. [/QUOTE] Apparently, Helio Castroneves (who finished second) didn’t hear how he was supposed to react. From [this link](http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24220220/): > [@](#): > > “With five laps to go, I was saving fuel,” Castroneves said. “When Danica passed me, I realized she was the leader. She did a great job, passed me fair and square and that shows you how competitive our series is.” ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/333 "2008-04-21T21:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Ditch the irony quotes. In the world of professional racing, having a lighter car is absolutely an unfair advantage. [/QUOTE] Just saying this over and over doesn’t make it true. You have yet to come up with a convincing argument that it is unfair. “Everyone else does it” is pretty weak. [QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Taller and bigger drivers have NOT “been working at this disadvantage for decades now without a word of protest.” They have always protested this unfair advantage the lighter drivers enjoyed. It just didn’t make headlines until Patrick joined the circuit. [/QUOTE] Funny that. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/334 "2008-04-21T22:44:20Z")
[QUOTE=Yookeroo] Just saying this over and over doesn’t make it true. You have yet to come up with a convincing argument that it is unfair. “Everyone else does it” is pretty weak. [/QUOTE] Dude, you’re the most arrogant moron I’ve ever come across. Every single expert and authority is in agreement on the issue. But oh no, they’re all idiots and only the brilliant you understand the the real situation? Give it a fucking rest. Why don’t you go argue for creationism or debunk global warming or something. You know, because unanimous expert agreement is so meaningless and all. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/335 "2008-04-21T23:11:49Z")
[QUOTE=Yookeroo] … come up with a convincing argument that it is unfair. [/QUOTE] [Here](http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/17337/573/3)’s a discussion of NASCAR weight rules. > [@](#): > > NASCAR mandates that all Cup cars must weigh 3400 pounds, including the driver and all of his safety gear, when the cars enter sanctioned competition. All cars are inspected and weighed by NASCAR prior to any type of competition. Teams have gone to great length to find ways to cheat with the weight of their cars. In other words, if you have a car that weighs 3300 pounds racing against 42 other cars that weigh 3400 pounds, the 3300 pound car will have a definite advantage. The same horsepower that all of the cars basically produce will be moving the lighter car faster than the rest of the field of 3400 pound cars. > > … > > One former Winston Cup Champion who is now retired related the story of how his team used to beat the odds by cheating. This particular driver had a lead racing helmet that the team hung in the car during inspection. As the cars were sitting on pit road preparing for the start of the race, a crew member would switch out the lead helmet with the driver’s regular helmet. The same team has a system where they would add the required weight to their frame rails with lead BB’s that were designed to come out of the car when the inertia of the car in banked corners forced them out of holes drilled in the frame rails. The BB’s would fall harmlessly onto the track and roll into the infield grass. Maybe that’s why this particular driver won three Winston Cup Championships. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/336 "2008-04-21T23:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=Xema] [Here](http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/17337/573/3)’s a discussion of NASCAR weight rules. [/QUOTE] hehheh, those NASCAR guys have my undying respect as the greatest cheaters ever to cheat. Bill Belichick could certainly learn a thing or two from them. Lead helmet? That’s funny as shit. The BBs, though, is pure genius. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/337 "2008-04-22T01:46:18Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] hehheh, those NASCAR guys have my undying respect as the greatest cheaters ever to cheat. Bill Belichick could certainly learn a thing or two from them. Lead helmet? That’s funny as shit. The BBs, though, is pure genius. [/QUOTE] Not sure why that’s a surprise, or “soooo-prahze” as they say down south. NASCAR’s founding fathers were ridge runners (smugglers) that ran homemade whiskey and moonshine in fast cars in the dead of night to evade the local police. It’s no wonder they’re cheaters, they’ve got years of experience. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/338 "2008-04-22T02:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] Not sure why that’s a surprise, or “soooo-prahze” as they say down south. NASCAR’s founding fathers were ridge runners (smugglers) that ran homemade whiskey and moonshine in fast cars in the dead of night to evade the local police. It’s no wonder they’re cheaters, they’ve got years of experience. [/QUOTE] No surprise, I always knew they cheated in every ingenious way possible. I just never knew any of the particulars, and those examples struck me as funny. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/339 "2008-04-22T02:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] No surprise, I always knew they cheated in every ingenious way possible. I just never knew any of the particulars, and those examples struck me as funny. [/QUOTE] You haven’t seen anything yet. Check out the exploits of [Smokey Yunick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick). Now THAT cat was the best there ever was. > [@](#): > > As with most successful racers, Yunick was a master of the gray area straddling the rules. Perhaps his most famous exploit was his #13 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle, driven by Curtis Turner. The car was so much faster than the competition during testing that they were certain that cheating was involved; some sort of aerodynamic enhancement was strongly suspected, but the car’s profile seemed to be entirely stock, as the rules required. It was eventually discovered that what Yunick had built was an exact 7/8 scale replica of the production car. Since then, NASCAR required each race car’s roof, hood, and trunk to fit templates representing the production car’s exact profile. More recently, these templates represent an agreed upon “specification body” that has minimal connection to a production car’s profile. The shape has been developed with extensive wind tunnel testing to “level the playing field” across several manufacturer’s products. > > Another Yunick improvisation was getting around the regulations specifying a maximum size for the fuel tank, by using eleven foot coils of 2-inch diameter tubing for the fuel line to add about 5 gallons[1] to the car’s fuel capacity. Once, NASCAR officials came up with a list of nine items for Yunick to fix before the car would be allowed on the track. The suspicious NASCAR officials had removed the tank for inspection. Yunick started the car with no gas tank and said “Better make it ten,”[2] and drove it back to the pits. He used a basketball in the fuel tank which could be inflated when the car’s fuel capacity was checked and deflated for the race. > > Yunick also used such innovations as offset chassis, raised floors, roof spoilers, nitrous oxide injection, and other modifications often within the letter of the rule-book, if not the spirit. “All those other guys were cheatin’ 10 times worse than us,” Yunick wrote in his autobiography, “so it was just self-defense.” Yunick’s success was also due to his expertise in the aerodynamics of racing cars. Now that’s just heroic. How can you hate on a guy that builds a 7/8 scale car to get a leg up? That’s just too cool for words. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/340 "2008-04-22T04:26:52Z")
I don’t follow NASCAR closely, but am I right in assuming that they now weigh drivers and cars, and do other tech inspections, after the race, as well as before? I know they do in Formula 1: you can often see the drivers stepping on the scales before the podium ceremony. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=18)