# Indy drivers whine about Danica Patrick because of her weight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947 "2005-05-29T02:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/81 "2005-05-30T17:32:49Z")
> [@Boggette](#): > > This was a truly amazing race. Certainly one for the history books. The only information I’d like to know is where she sits in their points race. Has she got a chance at the title? [Current standings](http://www.indycar.com/stats/) Danica is in 9th place. I would think she has a pretty good shot at the title since it’s so early in the season. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/82 "2005-05-30T17:56:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Problem for **him** , not for most folks. He’s an outlier on the field, and she’s an outlier on the field, and it’s presumptuous, sniveling, and grossly unsportsmanlike for her to insist that she be handicapped specifically to make the race easier for him. > > Daniel It’s unsportsmanlike to insist that the race be fair? Let’s look at the facts. She has an advantage due to her weight. This advantage will allow her to go faster than all of her competitors. If she weighed more, she wouldn’t go as fast as she does now. Most, if not all of her competitors could not lose weight to make the advantage she has negligible. How is it wrong to bring up that fact that she has an advantage? I get that everyone wants her to succeed because she’s a woman, but let’s not criticize someone for stating a fact. It won’t necessarily make the race easier for him for two reasons. One, she is not a front runner, nor is she anyone’s main competition. Two, his driving skills aren’t improved by her having to add weight to her car. She may be a better driver than he is, and might beat him anyway. If Ms. Patrick truly thinks her weight isn’t a factor, then she should carry 60 extra pounds with her and see how she does. The reason it’s a problem now is because she has advantage over everyone, not just 200 lb. racers. An 150 lb. man still competes with many racers within 5-15 pounds. While it’s still a problem for a 200 lb. racer, he could theoretically lose weight to compensate. In addition, the weight range is reasonable. There is no way a healthy 200 lb. man can lose 100 lbs. She probably has 50-60 lbs. on nearly everyone. That’s what makes it an unfair advantage, and something that should be looked into. ---
**Author:** ![Boggette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@Boggette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boggette)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/83 "2005-05-30T18:17:49Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s unsportsmanlike to insist that the race be fair? Let’s look at the facts. She has an advantage due to her weight. This advantage will allow her to go faster than all of her competitors. If she weighed more, she wouldn’t go as fast as she does now. Most, if not all of her competitors could not lose weight to make the advantage she has negligible. How is it wrong to bring up that fact that she has an advantage? I get that everyone wants her to succeed because she’s a woman, but let’s not criticize someone for stating a fact. > … This isn’t NASCAR where all cars are required to be the same. This is Indy. You bring to the track what you have. The rules are posted before hand as to what is allowed and not allowed. Weight is NOT one of the factors involved. Guys and women of all sizes can enter the race. Cars of different makes enter the race. If the people entering the race are in compliance with the rules that are stipulated, the race is Fair from that perspective. This is a guy who isn’t even IN the race bitching about the weight of One Driver. He’s just pathetic. And if there was a diminutive man out there, not a single word would have been said. I question the motive of the speaker, Gordon. Here’s a link to the rules and information on the sport. [http://www.indyracing.com/home.php](http://www.indyracing.com/home.php) ---
**Author:** ![Boggette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@Boggette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boggette)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/84 "2005-05-30T18:19:13Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > [Current standings](http://www.indycar.com/stats/) > > Danica is in 9th place. I would think she has a pretty good shot at the title since it’s so early in the season. Thanks for the link! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/85 "2005-05-30T18:25:38Z")
She has the advantage. Her car does not, as it still has to meet minimum weight. Admittedly, this does mean she can carry 40+ pounds of other items, but so what? No rule against jockeys racing offseason, either. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/86 "2005-05-30T18:27:10Z")
My mistake. Minimum weight does not include driver. [http://www.indyracing.com/tech/chassis.php](http://www.indyracing.com/tech/chassis.php) There’s a lot of variance allowed, though. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/87 "2005-05-30T18:53:01Z")
> [@Boggette](#): > > This isn’t NASCAR where all cars are required to be the same. This is Indy. You bring to the track what you have. The rules are posted before hand as to what is allowed and not allowed. Weight is NOT one of the factors involved. Guys and women of all sizes can enter the race. Cars of different makes enter the race. If the people entering the race are in compliance with the rules that are stipulated, the race is Fair from that perspective. > > This is a guy who isn’t even IN the race bitching about the weight of One Driver. He’s just pathetic. And if there was a diminutive man out there, not a single word would have been said. I question the motive of the speaker, Gordon. > > Here’s a link to the rules and information on the sport. [http://www.indyracing.com/home.php](http://www.indyracing.com/home.php) Yes, I understand she isn’t breaking the rules. The rules don’t have to be fair. What Gordon advocated was that the rules be fair, they are not IMO. What are you basing your opinion of his motives on? Has he said something sexist before? Does he hate women? He, and others acknowledge that she has an advantage. To quote the CNN article: > [@](#): > > Although her rivals in Sunday’s race have said she doesn’t have a huge advantage, pole-sitter Tony Kanaan told reporters he would like the Indy Racing League to look into the issue. Apparently Tony Kanaan is a pathetic woman hater too. This is a problem that should be addressed. She is not breaking the rules, but she does have an advantage. That’s all Gordon said. Where’s all the outrage coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/88 "2005-05-30T19:00:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Where’s all the outrage coming from. The fact that Gordon stated he wouldn’t race against Patrick until the IRL does something about the weight difference. He should get out there and race her. If she beats him soundly (barring equipment failure and/or accidents), he’ll have proven his point. I think strategy plays a bigger hand in this than weight difference. I think if the team had not gambled on fuel, she probably would have won (IMHO). I’ve talked with some NASCAR fans who have said Gordon is well known for his whining. If he feels the IRL is not being fair, he should stop racing and stick to NASCAR. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/89 "2005-05-30T19:26:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This is a problem that should be addressed. How is it a “problem”? I can see _maybe_ if all of a sudden 100-lb drivers began dominating the sport. I don’t see that happening. Nor do I think it likely that _weight alone_ is ever going to determine the winner of either a NASCAR or an Indy race. If a 100-lb driver does win, how do you factor out the driver’s & team’s skill, the car’s performance, the relative skills of the other drivers, etc., and be able to conclude that the victory was solely attributable to the weight of that driver? You can’t. Even if an investigation were to determine that there is “some” advantage to being lighter, what would that accomplish? Should everyone under a certain weight be disqualified? That just makes the new weight limit the “advantageous” weight, and anyone heavier will probably then complain about being disadvantaged. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/90 "2005-05-30T19:55:07Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > How is it a “problem”? I can see _maybe_ if all of a sudden 100-lb drivers began dominating the sport. I don’t see that happening. Nor do I think it likely that _weight alone_ is ever going to determine the winner of either a NASCAR or an Indy race. If a 100-lb driver does win, how do you factor out the driver’s & team’s skill, the car’s performance, the relative skills of the other drivers, etc., and be able to conclude that the victory was solely attributable to the weight of that driver? You can’t. > > Even if an investigation were to determine that there is “some” advantage to being lighter, what would that accomplish? Should everyone under a certain weight be disqualified? That just makes the new weight limit the “advantageous” weight, and anyone heavier will probably then complain about being disadvantaged. All of the other things you mentioned are what’s being tested as the drivers race. Weight is an outside factor that should not influence the outcome. However, when one driver weighs less than everyone else by a large margin, it will influence the outcome. There is no debate about it. Less weight is an advantage. To make it fair, she should have to carry extra weight to bring her up the the average weight of the Indy drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/91 "2005-05-30T20:20:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > To make it fair, she should have to carry extra weight to bring her up the the average weight of the Indy drivers. To make it fair, _all_ drivers should have to carry weight to bring them up to the weight of the _heaviest_ driver. This is what you need to advocate. Otherwise, your whole case is just fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/92 "2005-05-30T20:25:19Z")
> [@](#): > > All of the other things you mentioned are what’s being tested as the drivers race. Weight is an outside factor that should not influence the outcome. However, when one driver weighs less than everyone else by a large margin, it will influence the outcome. There is no debate about it. Less weight is an advantage. To make it fair, she should have to carry extra weight to bring her up the the average weight of the Indy drivers. I would have more sympathy for this (untested) position if the 200 - 220 lb. drivers had been looking to have the 150 - 170 lb. drivers adjusted years ago. Since they waited until a lighter woman was the “culprit” in “tiltng the scales,” I am unpersuaded by unsubstantiated claims that weight “will influence the outcome.” Where are the figures for the cars’ weights? Has the lightest car always won–or even won consistently? Has anyone guesstimated the difference that the drivers’ weights have made in races past? I’m not buying it without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/93 "2005-05-30T20:57:45Z")
And why didn’t they complain about this weight issue regarding previous women drivers? I don’t think Janet Guthrie was particularly Amazonian. Mayhap it’s b/c Ms. Patrick didn’t careen into the wall on the fourth lap? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/94 "2005-05-30T21:16:05Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Yes, I understand she isn’t breaking the rules. The rules don’t have to be fair. What Gordon advocated was that the rules be fair, they are not IMO. What are you basing your opinion of his motives on? It’s really very simple. Gordon has been racing in IRL with drivers that varied in weight by 70 pounds or more for years and years. He’s never said anything about driver weight before, and certainly never petulantly refused to race a lighter driver. Now, all of a sudden, he starts complaining about driver weight when a lighter driver just happens to be female. If you can’t see the connection there, you must be fucking insane. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/95 "2005-05-30T21:44:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Weight is an outside factor that should not influence the outcome. However, when one driver weighs less than everyone else by a large margin, it will influence the outcome. There is no debate about it. Less weight is an advantage. To which, I would echo what others have said: prove it. But, the only way you could prove it is to find two drivers, of exactly equal skill, driving exactly equal vehicles. Which, of course, you will never find. Less weight might well be an advantage _all other things being equal_ but _all other things are never equal_. Faster reflexes are an advantage. Faster pit crews are an advantage. Rapid mental processing is an advantage. Better vision is an advantage. There are oodles of traits which are advantageous for a race car driver to possess. And different drivers possess those traits in varying combinations and to varying degrees. One advantage may well be offset by another disadvantage. Separating out any single one as **the** reason why so-and-so is beating the pants off everyone else is difficult enough. Declaring some trait to be oh-so-advantageous when that driver _isn’t_ beating the pants off everybody else is, well, pretty damned lame. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/96 "2005-05-30T21:49:11Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > I wasn’t trying to be rude to you, Ellis, but I probably was, and I apologize for my poor wording. I wasn’t trying to be as confrontational as that sounded, even if it is “the Pit”. :o No worries, but thanks for the clarification; I appreciate it. I definitely do _not_ want to debate physics with you, as the public ass-handing you would deal out to me would be quite embarassing. But I do think I had a legitimate point that I failed to convey properly. Shaq’s advantage is purely biological; there is no mechanical aspect to the sport of basketball. It’s not the greatest analogy, but I would liken the weight issue to be similar to using an aluminum bat in MLB. When your equipment has a measurable affect on the sport, you should do everything you can to equalize that mechanical impact for all competitors. In other words, the only advantages that should exist in any sport should be purely human. Bigger, stronger, faster, smarter. This is one reason I think that NASCAR is a good, uh, what is NASCAR? A league? Btw, that was interesting about the jockeys and using weight equalizers. I guess the idea has merit in every applicable sport except IRL. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/97 "2005-05-30T21:54:09Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > To which, I would echo what others have said: prove it. But, the only way you could prove it is to find two drivers, of exactly equal skill, driving exactly equal vehicles. Which, of course, you will never find. Or, you could send the same guy/car around the track, adding 100 pounds of ballast and then taking it out, and compare the times. > [@](#): > > Less weight might well be an advantage _all other things being equal_ but _all other things are never equal_. Well, the whole point of sports is to compete based on these differences in skill. Forgive me for not use quote tags, but in response to your list: Faster reflexes are an advantage. **skill** Faster pit crews are an advantage. **skill** Rapid mental processing is an advantage. **skill** Better vision is an advantage. **skill** There are oodles of traits which are advantageous for a race car driver to possess. **Not a skill** (assuming this is the bucket for the weight difference) See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/98 "2005-05-30T21:57:34Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Or, you could send the same guy/car around the track, adding 100 pounds of ballast and then taking it out, and compare the times. Where would you put the extra 100lbs in the car so that the weight distribution is equal? I would figure under the seat. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/99 "2005-05-30T22:02:41Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > Where would you put the extra 100lbs in the car so that the weight distribution is equal? I would figure under the seat. Maybe throw some junk in the trunk? _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947/100 "2005-05-30T22:05:00Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Shaq’s advantage is purely biological; there is no mechanical aspect to the sport of basketball. It’s not the greatest analogy, but I would liken the weight issue to be similar to using an aluminum bat in MLB. When your equipment has a measurable affect on the sport, you should do everything you can to equalize that mechanical impact for all competitors. > > In other words, the only advantages that should exist in any sport should be purely human. Bigger, stronger, faster, smarter. This is one reason I think that NASCAR is a good, uh, what is NASCAR? A league? OK, I see what you’re saying here, but I think I’m focusing at a bigger picture of the sport and seeing some much larger inequities, such that the weight issue is a wash. I mean to say, auto racing is a sport very much dependent upon money above all. The team with the most money is going to have the best engineers, more spare cars/engines, better maintenance, more time for R&D about different tire settings/wing positions, etc. There is also a difference in such things as the training of the pit crew, the on-board diagnostics available, the money spent in practice time… I guess that is what I’m saying on that subtopic - this is a sport where there are many things, mainly money-dependent, that end up making a much larger difference between win or lose. I don’t know if there is any sort of salary-cap type thing in NASCAR or Indy car type things, but I don’t believe there is in most any other auto racing sport. If Gordon wants things to be dead fair, I think he needs to address that first, because that’s going to make the bigger difference. And because he has not, it appears to me as if he is primarily focusing on a small female interloper who has come into his turf. Also, the fact that he has not complained about equalizing weight among the other drivers takes more creedence away from him. You get into a really potentially tenuous situation where if one driver weighs, say, 300 pounds, all the rest have to add weight onto their vehicles to match. And what if the heaviest driver’s weight goes up, or down - do they have to modify the cars for every event? Strawman or not, it could be a real situation, and that really sounds wrong to me. So I admit that the weight is an advantage, but I feel that in the grand scheme of things it’s much less of an advantage than inequal funding, and I also contend that Mr. Gordon has made a serious PR gaff that has opened himself up to some amount of mockery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/indy-drivers-whine-about-danica-patrick-because-of-her-weight/305947.md?page=6)